Doggerland

[Stevo]

I don't need to read Jean Manco's book.That is her view and I can make up my own mind about things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion . . .

Well, you really should read her book. It is excellent: very well written and supported by the latest scientific studies, which she cites copiously.

There is, after all, a great deal of difference between "opinion" and well informed opinion.

[1798]

Well, you really should read her book. It is excellent: very well written and supported by the latest scientific studies, which she cites copiously.

There is, after all, a great deal of difference between "opinion" and well informed opinion.

There is no point in reading a book written by someone who is anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp.

[Zaru]

A 4600 R1b remains was found in Germany so you would have to think that he was descended from a line that was established there before then.
Some L21 men believe that France was the origin place so you could say around 5000y ybp.
DF27 is as old or even older with a place of origin in Iberia.
Michal's estimate for U106 is close to 6000 ybp and is found mostly in the Netherlands and Belgium.
One of my group has 35 novel SNPs from the Big-Y,35x150 years and is also a European subclade.

As you astutely stated in one of your opening remarks, the R1b man in Germany is the oldest remains found, but not necessarily the only remains that will be found. It's not a semantic, but more than likely a fact.

I think that we are all going to experience some surprises in the near future. But for now, we have to work within the constraints of which lie before us.

[Stevo]

There is no point in reading a book written by someone who is anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp.

There is no such thing as "anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp." For one thing, as has been pointed out to you more than once, the two R1b Beaker males from Kromsdorf, Germany, - in Europe - were dated to about 2,600 BC, so everyone who knows about that already believes there are two known cases of R1b in Europe from about 4,600 years ago ("years before present"). That's before 4,000 ybp.

For another, no one is against ("anti") R1b in Europe more than 4,000 years ago, or more than 10,000 years ago, or whatever.

It's just that there is no evidence that R1b was in Western Europe before the Neolithic Period.

You're going to have to stick to reading material from about seven or eight years ago to find "R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge" and "R1b-in-Doggerland" stuff.

[Stevo]

. . .
I think that we are all going to experience some surprises in the near future. But for now, we have to work within the constraints of which lie before us.

Many surprises have already come. Seven or eight years ago and more, the idea that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge was the received wisdom. Many people clung to that idea even after age estimates based on haplotype variance began to make it clear that R1b in Western Europe wasn't diverse enough to have been around there that long. They fondly hoped that ancient y-dna would vindicate their position, first with Oetzi the Italian Ice Man, and then with each subsequent ancient y-dna result. Each time, they have been disappointed.

The most recent Mesolithic y-dna result came from the heartland of the FC Ice Age Refuge, Spain. Surely if any ancient y-dna result should have been R1b, it should have. Yet the La Braña man was not R1b at all: surprise! he belonged to y haplogroup C.

[1798]

Many surprises have already come. Seven or eight years ago and more, the idea that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge was the received wisdom. Many people clung to that idea even after age estimates based on haplotype variance began to make it clear that R1b in Western Europe wasn't diverse enough to have been around there that long. They fondly hoped that ancient y-dna would vindicate their position, first with Oetzi the Italian Ice Man, and then with each subsequent ancient y-dna result. Each time, they have been disappointed.

The most recent Mesolithic y-dna result came from the heartland of the FC Ice Age Refuge, Spain. Surely if any ancient y-dna result should have been R1b, it should have. Yet the La Braña man was not R1b at all: surprise! he belonged to y haplogroup C.

All that we learned from La Brana man was that there was one man of the C haplogroup in western Europe 7000 years ago.
P312** is found in the Isles and they are a group that is ancestral to L21,DF27 and U152. That is something that is not spoken about.

[Stevo]

All that we learned from La Brana man was that there was one man of the C haplogroup in western Europe 7000 years ago.

We also learned that he was NOT R1b, despite being found in Spain, which is dominated today by R1b (specifically, R-DF27).

And we learned that yet another ancient y-dna find from before the Copper Age was NOT R1b.

P312** is found in the Isles and they are a group that is ancestral to L21,DF27 and U152. That is something that is not spoken about.

P312* (one asterisk is sufficient) is rapidly disintegrating as new P312+ subclades are discovered via Big Y and full genome testing. It isn't at all likely that any real modern examples of genuine P312* exist anywhere.

None of the modern men who are currently designated as P312* belongs to a haplogroup that is ancestral to L21, DF27, U152, DF19, DF99, etc. Instead they belong to a paragroup that is simply awaiting the discovery of its various identifying downstream SNPs.

[1798]

We also learned that he was NOT R1b, despite being found in Spain, which is dominated today by R1b (specifically, R-DF27).

And we learned that yet another ancient y-dna find from before the Copper Age was NOT R1b.



P312* (one asterisk is sufficient) is rapidly disintegrating as new P312+ subclades are discovered via Big Y and full genome testing. It isn't at all likely that any real modern examples of genuine P312* exist anywhere.

None of the modern men who are currently designated as P312* belongs to a haplogroup that is ancestral to L21, DF27, U152, DF19, DF99, etc. Instead they belong to a paragroup that is simply awaiting the discovery of its various identifying downstream SNPs.

All of the P312* men have the ancestral alleles of L21, DF27, U152, DF19, DF99.

[Stevo]

All of the P312* men have the ancestral alleles of L21, DF27, U152, DF19, DF99.

That just means they are negative for L21, DF27, U152, DF19, and DF99. There is also L238, and there are new SNPs under P312 being uncovered through Big Y and full genome testing.

Before I tested P312+, I was M269*. I was M269* for about two years. Does that mean I was a walking throwback to M269*? No. I just had not yet been tested for P312. Before I tested L21+, I was P312*. Does that mean I was a throwback to P312*? No. I just had not yet been tested for L21. Then I was L21* for awhile until I tested DF13+, and then DF13* until I tested DF41+, and so on it goes.

So it is with the current crop of men who are P312*. They are merely awaiting the discovery of their particular downstream SNP or SNPs.

[1798]

That just means they are negative for L21, DF27, U152, DF19, and DF99. There is also L238, and there are new SNPs under P312 being uncovered through Big Y and full genome testing.

Before I tested P312+, I was M269*. I was M269* for about two years. Does that mean I was a walking throwback to M269*? No. I just had not yet been tested for P312. Before I tested L21+, I was P312*. Does that mean I was a throwback to P312*? No. I just had not yet been tested for L21. Then I was L21* for awhile until I tested DF13+, and then DF13* until I tested DF41+, and so on it goes.

So it is with the current crop of men who are P312*. They are merely awaiting the discovery of their particular downstream SNP or SNPs.

It means that they belong to the ancestral group of L21, DF27, U152, DF19, and DF99 and they are the survivors of that group, rare means ancient.

[Stevo]

It means that they belong to the ancestral group of L21, DF27, U152, DF19, and DF99 and they are the survivors of that group, rare means ancient.

No it does not. It means that you either do not understand a careful explanation of the reality or choose not to.

Good grief.

Are you actually saying that you believe there are men walking the earth today whose y-dna lines have not experienced a single new SNP - not even one - since the birth of their first P312+ ancestor?

Really?

[Stevo]

Dienekes has some news this morning of some more ancient Scandinavian y-dna (and mtDNA) results.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html

I'm only posting the entries that include y-dna (there are other mtDNA entries).

Motala2(Male), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I PF3742+, I L41+, I1 S108-, I1 L845-, I1 M253-, I2a1b CT1293-, I2a2 L37-), mtDNA=U2e1

Motala3(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1b*(I M258+, I PF3742+, I2 L68+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U5a1

Motala6(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=? (Q1 L232- Q1a2a L55+), mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala9(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I1 P40-), mtDNA=U5a2

Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2, mtDNA=U4d

None of these ancient European remains tested positive for R1b (M343).

[1798]

No it does not. It means that you either do not understand a careful explanation of the reality or choose not to.

Good grief.

Are you actually saying that you believe there are men walking the earth today whose y-dna lines have not experienced a single new SNP - not even one - since the birth of their first P312+ ancestor?

Really?

You are the one who doesn't understand and I can't explain it to you.

[1798]

I have news from Irelandsdna.

"First Contacts
Closer to home and opening a distinctly Scottish theme to this month’s newsletter, archaeologists have made a startling discovery at Howburn Farm, near Biggar, south of Edinburgh. They have come across the earliest traces of human settlement yet found in Scotland. From an examination of about 5,000 flints, they have concluded that the prehistoric encampment where the flint knappers worked was set up around 14,000BC. Having compared their finds to flints made in Northern Germany, where dating is more secure, the archaeologists further believe that the settlers were reindeer hunters who probably followed the trails of the herds as they migrated north in search of summer pasture. Some of the flint was picked up on their pursuit of these shaggy migrants in Northern England and Southern Scotland and some was also certainly sourced in Yorkshire.

Lake Agassiz

The dating is surprising. It places the hunters in the period between the first ice-melt at the end of the ice age proper and the readvance of the Arctic conditions in The Cold Snap. The latter was caused by the flooding of the North Atlantic by a breakdown of the ice-dams around a huge inland sea, Lake Agassiz in Northern Canada. This released a vast volume of ice-cold freshwater into the ocean and had the effect of turning back the Gulf Stream, thus bringing back the ice to Britain. In the interval between the first melt and the readvance the Howburn hunters appeared to have moved north from what is now England into Scotland, chasing the herds. There is a sense of them hunting right up against the ice, much as the Inuit do now.

The link with Germany was almost certainly made across Doggerland, the submerged subcontinent which was home to thousands of our ancestors. And it is very likely that we have had strong genetic links with Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries from very earliest times. Almost all trace of the culture of the Howburn hunters has vanished, but their DNA lives on and its carriers returned after the ice finally retreated."

[T E Peterman]

The Irelandsdna report is no doubt valid, but it has absolutely nothing to do with R1b.

Timothy Peterman