Doggerland

[Stevo]

There is a lot of ancient dna testing yet to be done so it is too early to make statements like that.We are at the beginning of a process not the end.

How many ancient y-dna results will it take?

First off, you said "R1b is 25-30,000 years old", and there is no evidence that is the case. Even if it were, that is no evidence R1b was anywhere near Doggerland before it was submerged beneath the North Sea over 8,000 years ago.

Thus far, none of the Mesolithic and Neolithic sites that have produced ancient y-dna has yielded any R1b of any kind, even in areas, like Spain and France, where R1b is the dominant y haplogroup today.

It is possible some Mesolithic R1b could be found in Western Europe tomorrow, but with each new ancient y-dna test result that is looking less and less likely.

[mjaMahé]

If the scientists want to find the dna of the people of Doggerland all they have to do is find the matching dna from the east coast of Britain and the Low Countries.
There have been a lot of people killed in tsunamis in the past twenty years but their dna lives on in the survivors.

Good morning.

You speak about a possible Atlantide in this place? Myself prefer the Rockall version. Why? because if you think about the earth origin, we have had the Gondwana, only one continent. But, after some millions years, the Gondwana was separated. I imagine great seisms for these facts and also a penetration of the sea in some places. But the place where we localize the possible Atlantide actually were perhaps with some primitif lifes and those disapeared into the sea during one seism. But I don't know where can come the legend, perhaps from some birds?

[1798]

How many ancient y-dna results will it take?

First off, you said "R1b is 25-30,000 years old", and there is no evidence that is the case. Even if it were, that is no evidence R1b was anywhere near Doggerland before it was submerged beneath the North Sea over 8,000 years ago.

Thus far, none of the Mesolithic and Neolithic sites that have produced ancient y-dna has yielded any R1b of any kind, even in areas, like Spain and France, where R1b is the dominant y haplogroup today.

It is possible some Mesolithic R1b could be found in Western Europe tomorrow, but with each new ancient y-dna test result that is looking less and less likely.

L11,L151,L52,P310,P311
The Mesolithic families who had these markers may be buried beneath the North Sea so you won't find any evidence of them but their descendants who survived may live on both sides of the North Sea today.
WAMH is believed to be the haplotype of L11 and is found mostly in the Isles.I am not stating this because I want it to be.We are all looking for the place of origin of the R1b branches that we belong to.

[Stevo]

L11,L151,L52,P310,P311
The Mesolithic families who had these markers may be buried beneath the North Sea so you won't find any evidence of them but their descendants who survived may live on both sides of the North Sea today.

Theories that cannot be proven or falsified are essentially worthless.

If there were L11 men living in Doggerland over 8,000 years ago (which is extremely unlikely), and if they had descendants who survived, then some of those descendants should be showing up in other ancient y-dna sites, both Mesolithic and Neolithic. Thus far, they have not appeared.

WAMH is believed to be the haplotype of L11 and is found mostly in the Isles.I am not stating this because I want it to be.We are all looking for the place of origin of the R1b branches that we belong to.

WAMH is simply a modal haplotype.

It is common all over Western Europe now, but no R1b of any kind has shown up in any ancient remains beyond about 2,600 BC, and that was in the two Beaker males from Kromsdorf, Germany.

The reason most R-L11 men aren't too far off WAMH is because their y haplogroup isn't old enough in Western Europe to have become too diverse. It isn't old enough to have been in Doggerland over 8,000 years ago.

Most people have abandoned all that old "R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge" and "Doggerland" stuff from six or eight years ago in the face of more recent scientific developments.

[1798]

L11,L151,L52,P310,P311
We are the descendants of these men.It has yet to be established where they lived 8000 years ago. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
It is pretty obvious to all that you are anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp.

[mjaMahé]

Doggerland atlantide.

Good morning.

Since I've read this topic, I think about this subject :
http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/a...rd-409071.html

It's alright that the R1b migration with his germanic branch U106 can be into this trip, to be a descendant of Atlante, but is not a good trip on this place. For people concerned, we must just to stay human!

Like on my previous post on this topic, I prefer Rockall with no real descendants of this place and just a legend.

[1798]

Good morning.

Since I've read this topic, I think about this subject :
http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/a...rd-409071.html

It's alright that the R1b migration with his germanic branch U106 can be into this trip, to be a descendant of Atlante, but is not a good trip on this place. For people concerned, we must just to stay human!

Like on my previous post on this topic, I prefer Rockall with no real descendants of this place and just a legend.

What planet are you from?

[Zaru]

I agree.

What matters is NOT where there is the most R1b. What counts is the diversity in R1b samples & as many folks have mentioned over the last 6 months to a year, that place is Anatolia, NOT Iberia or Ireland.

Timothy Peterman

I have to believe that R1b came from the east asian, but along with it came L21. Before we ask for scientific paperwork to support my theory, please understand, it is just my unscientific opinion.

We are seeing L21 in a distinct pattern from Georgia up through the Baltics,Eastern Europe, Russia, into the Nordic nations at low numbers. In some of those areas, I cannot imagine a reverse migration scenario to populate L21 in those areas as many of these people have supporting pedigrees. It could be invader genes, but the pattern that is emerging is distinct.

I think that L21 might be trying to tell us more about its origins, particularly with the DF13* folk.

[Stevo]

L11,L151,L52,P310,P311
We are the descendants of these men.It has yet to be established where they lived 8000 years ago. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
It is pretty obvious to all that you are anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp.

Absence of evidence is also not evidence of presence. It is not even evidence. In fact, when you can't find something someplace, the more you look and still can't find it, the less and less likely it becomes that it was ever there in the first place.

That's the way it is currently going with R1b in Western Europe prior to the Neolithic Period.

There is really no reason at all to think that R1b was present in Doggerland over 8,000 years ago and lots of reasons to believe it wasn't.

As for being "anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp", what does that mean? You make it sound like a political position. I'm not against R1b being in Europe before 4,000 years ago. Obviously, it was in Europe by about 4,600 years ago, because the two Beaker males from Kromsdorf, Germany, were dated to about 2,600 BC, and they were both R1b.

If by "anti-R1b in Europe before 4000 ybp" you mean that I don't believe R1b got to Western Europe before the Neolithic Period, you are correct. I am not against R1b being in Western Europe prior to the Neolithic Period; I just don't think it was. I think R1b (meaning mostly L11 or perhaps L23) expanded into Europe beginning probably in the Copper or Bronze Age or perhaps the late Neolithic. Prior to that the chief y haplogroups in Europe were the ones that are showing up in ancient y-dna finds from the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods: mainly various clades of G and I.

[1798]

I have to believe that R1b came from the east asian, but along with it came L21. Before we ask for scientific paperwork to support my theory, please understand, it is just my unscientific opinion.

We are seeing L21 in a distinct pattern from Georgia up through the Baltics,Eastern Europe, Russia, into the Nordic nations at low numbers. In some of those areas, I cannot imagine a reverse migration scenario to populate L21 in those areas as many of these people have supporting pedigrees. It could be invader genes, but the pattern that is emerging is distinct.

I think that L21 might be trying to tell us more about its origins, particularly with the DF13* folk.

A 4600 R1b remains was found in Germany so you would have to think that he was descended from a line that was established there before then.
Some L21 men believe that France was the origin place so you could say around 5000y ybp.
DF27 is as old or even older with a place of origin in Iberia.
Michal's estimate for U106 is close to 6000 ybp and is found mostly in the Netherlands and Belgium.
One of my group has 35 novel SNPs from the Big-Y,35x150 years and is also a European subclade.

[Stevo]

A 4600 R1b remains was found in Germany so you would have to think that he was descended from a line that was established there before then.

No. The Beaker Folk were intrusive in Germany and differed anthropologically from the locals. They were a highly mobile people who used horses and herded cattle, sheep, and pigs. Many scholars believe they introduced an Indo-European speech to Central and Western Europe.

They weren't just the same old people who had been there all along.

Some L21 men believe that France was the origin place so you could say around 5000y ybp.

L21 likely arose among Beaker Folk, perhaps in France or perhaps along the Lower Rhine.

DF27 is as old or even older with a place of origin in Iberia.

No, it's not. If DF27 arose in Iberia, it did so in a P312+ man. Neither P312 nor DF27 were in Iberia prior to the Neolithic Period at the earliest and probably not until the Copper Age.

Michal's estimate for U106 is close to 6000 ybp and is found mostly in the Netherlands and Belgium.
One of my group has 35 novel SNPs from the Big-Y,35x150 years and is also a European subclade.

No one yet knows how to date y haplogroups from SNPs. Until there are sufficient father-and-son pairs of full genome results, it will not be possible to get accurate age estimates from SNPs.

Even if U106 is 6,000 years old (dob circa 4,000 BC: in other words, during the Neolithic Period), that does not mean it was anywhere near the Low Countries at that time.

I recommend you read Jean Manco's book, Ancestral Journeys.

[1798]

I don't need to read Jean Manco's book.That is her view and I can make up my own mind about things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
If FTDNA tested only one man in the Isles today and found him to be P312**then they would be wrong to think that is the only type of R1b that is in the Isles. Why should any scientist be of the opinion that one man in the past was R1b* in Germany and there were no other R1b subclades or branches in other European regions?

[LynCra]

Which Isles do you want to test? Hebrides? Orkney? Shetland?

[N21163]

1798 is out to attempt to disprove R-U106 has any association with Germanic peoples

[1798]

1798 is out to attempt to disprove R-U106 has any association with Germanic peoples

You are wrong.