Doggerland

[MMaddi]

There is no problem with any scenario anyone wants to put forth - except that of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

I hate to keep harping on the evidence we have from DNA results from ancient European remains, but that evidence is clear and, until new evidence comes along, decisive. I'll repeat it again. No R1b has been found in European remains before about 4,600 years ago.

1798 and ironroad41 can model or theorize or believe all they want about R1b in Europe. But if the physical evidence we have so far indicates their models and theories and beliefs are wrong, then they won't be convincing.

Think of it this way. If a murder has been committed and 1798 and ironroad41 believe, based on elaborate theories (even with motivation and other circumstantial evidence), that a certain man committed the crime, but there's no physical evidence, does that mean a jury should believe their theories and convict the man? Even more so, the forensics show that DNA of someone other than the man they suspect is found at the murder scene. I don't think it would take much of a defense attorney to get an acquittal for his client.

[1798]

The SNP trail currently seems to indicate a place of origin for R1b between the Black and Caspian Seas in the vicinity of northern Iran. That may be off a little, but probably not too far.

What SNP trail? L51 originated in Italy and what is the TMRCA for that SNP. L11 originated somewhere in western Europe. That's why they call the haplotype of the L11 ancestor the WAMH.

[Stevo]

What SNP trail? L51 originated in Italy and what is the TMRCA for that SNP. L11 originated somewhere in western Europe. That's why they call the haplotype of the L11 ancestor the WAMH.

The SNP trail for R1b, which should have been obvious from the context. It leads beyond L11 and even L51.

You keep harping on the WAMH (Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype), but its continued existence points to the fact that western European R1b (R-L11 and its clades, really) cannot be as old as you wish it was. Were it Paleolithic or even Mesolithic in western Europe, there would be no WAMH, because western European haplotypes would be much more diverse than they are.

[1798]

The SNP trail for R1b, which should have been obvious from the context. It leads beyond L11 and even L51.

You keep harping on the WAMH (Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype), but its continued existence points to the fact that western European R1b (R-L11 and its clades, really) cannot be as old as you wish it was. Were it Paleolithic or even Mesolithic in western Europe, there would be no WAMH, because western European haplotypes would be much more diverse than they are.

Show me the diversity among the Q1a3a haplotypes and they are 13,000 years old.

[thetick]

Show me the diversity among the Q1a3a haplotypes and they are 13,000 years old.

...due to the fact native Americans rarely test DNA is why diversity is missing. Many NA groups consider DNA testing a violation of their ancestors. So obviously we have MANY more Western European origin haplogroups tested then Native American.

I suspect if all Pre-Columbus Native Americans were able to be DNA tested, we see some huge diversity in Native American YDNA and MtDNA.

[N21163]

...due to the fact native Americans rarely test DNA is why diversity is missing. Many NA groups consider DNA testing a violation of their ancestors. So obviously we have MANY more Western European origin haplogroups tested then Native American.

I suspect if all Pre-Columbus Native Americans were able to be DNA tested, we see some huge diversity in Native American YDNA and MtDNA.

Good post. The lack of diversity in Native American haplotypes does not support anything 1798 is trying to say about Ireland

[1798]

Good post. The lack of diversity in Native American haplotypes does not support anything 1798 is trying to say about Ireland

I can write about Ireland if I want to.I am Irish and what is it to you?

[N21163]

I can write about Ireland if I want to.

Indeed you can. What does your statement have to do with mine?

"The lack of diversity in Native American haplotypes does not support anything 1798 is trying to say about Ireland".

I am Irish and what is it to you?

Nothing.

[Stevo]

...due to the fact native Americans rarely test DNA is why diversity is missing. Many NA groups consider DNA testing a violation of their ancestors. So obviously we have MANY more Western European origin haplogroups tested then Native American.

I suspect if all Pre-Columbus Native Americans were able to be DNA tested, we see some huge diversity in Native American YDNA and MtDNA.

True. Besides that, there are a number of different subclades of Q-M242 in the Americas. I suspect 1798 is talking out of his hat and actually has no idea what the haplotype diversity of Native American Q is.

I'm no expert on Q, but we were talking about R1b in western Europe anyway.

[1798]

No one has said anything like that. The Beaker Folk, although named for their characteristic drinking cups, were more than just people who used a certain kind of pottery. They were a distinct people with a package of characteristics, including physical characteristics.

The Beaker Folk had the horse, the plow, wheeled vehicles, and woolly sheep. They buried their important dead, for the most part, lying on their sides in single graves under a mound of earth, often with a set of grave goods that included an archer's wrist guard, arrowheads, and, naturally, the characteristic bell beaker.

The Beaker Folk, especially the males, stood out from the native populations of the areas in which they settled. They were taller, with robust skeletons and brachycephalic (round) skulls.

A wedge-shaped gallery grave or wedge tomb is a type of Irish chamber tomb. They are so named because the burial chamber itself narrows at one end (usually decreasing both in height and width from west to east), producing a wedge shape in elevation. An antechamber is separated from the burial area by a simple jamb or sill, and the doorway generally faces west.[1]

A distinguishing characteristic of wedge tombs is the double-walling of the gallery. They were often covered by cairns, which could be round, oval or D-shaped, often with a kerb to revet it. More are low sized, usually about 1.5 metres high, and are generally found on mountainsides, about three-quarters the way up.


"Wedge tombs were built between the Irish late Neolithic and middle Bronze Ages (about 2500 to 2000BC). Today, between 500 and 550 known wedge tombs survive[2] in Ireland, and are found predominantly in the west and north west of the island."
This is the way that Irish people buried their dead during the Bronze-Age. They were different from the burials in Britain.

[Stevo]

There are many Beaker sites in Ireland. This is from the Wikipedia article on the Beaker Folk:

Beakers arrived in Ireland around 2500 BC and fell out of use around 1700 BC (Needham 1996). The beaker pottery of Ireland was rarely used as a grave good, but is often found in domestic assemblages from the period. This stands in contrast to the rest of Europe where it frequently found in both roles. The inhabitants of Ireland used food vessels as a grave good instead. The large, communal passage tombs of the Irish Neolithic were no longer being constructed during the Early Bronze Age (although some, such as Newgrange were re-used (O’Kelly 1982)). The preferred method of burial seems to have been singular graves and cists in the east, or in small wedge tombs in the west. Cremation was also common.

The advent of the Bronze Age Beaker culture in Ireland[44] is accompanied by the destruction of smaller satellite tombs at Knowth[45] and collapses of the great cairn at Newgrange,[46] marking an end to the Neolithic culture of megalithic passage tombs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

[1798]

44 Ancient Ireland, Life before the Celts - Laurence Flanagan, 1998, Gil & MacMillan, ISBN 0-7171-2433-9

[Stevo]

44 Ancient Ireland, Life before the Celts - Laurence Flanagan, 1998, Gil & MacMillan, ISBN 0-7171-2433-9

Of course there was "Life before the Celts." No one is claiming the Celts sprung out of the ground, ready made, in Ireland, or that there were no people in Ireland before the Celts.

Really, I know it is a lot easier to beat up on straw men than to address the actual topic, but do try.

[ironroad41]

The SNP trail currently seems to indicate a place of origin for R1b between the Black and Caspian Seas in the vicinity of northern Iran. That may be off a little, but probably not too far.

There is no similar evidence for the Baltic region, although it might be a candidate for the later (Bronze Age) appearance of U106.

There is no problem with any scenario anyone wants to put forth - except that of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

You've got a huge amount of time between Malta'a man (Hg R) and R1b 343/269.

How did R1b arrive in Iran, from where and when? I'm tying movement, in prehistoric times, to climate. Is that circumstantial evidence? Possibly so, but humans are very sensitive to their environment, and have always had pretty good mobility.

The title of this discussion is Doggerland, which is a Red flag for some. The fact is that R1b appears to have its source in WE based on the current distribution by population. The second Red flag is the concept of a disaster and "bottleneck" to explain the distribution of R1b.

As you and MMaddi point out there is a dearth of good hard data to support the premise for, if not an origin of R1b a movement of R1b to the Isles in the early Holocene. My point is that it doesn't make it wrong to postulate that as one "possible" scenario. In an area, like DNA analysis and inference, it seems to me to be premature to say: Eureka, I've solved it.

[1798]

Of course there was "Life before the Celts." No one is claiming the Celts sprung out of the ground, ready made, in Ireland, or that there were no people in Ireland before the Celts.

Really, I know it is a lot easier to beat up on straw men than to address the actual topic, but do try.

The topic is Doggerland and what impact had the tsunami on the people of these two Islands. There are always survivors or we would not be here. The microliths found at Mount Sandel are similar to those found in mesolithic sites in Denmark. The mesolithic people must have crossed Doggerland to get to Mount Sandel.