Doggerland

[1798]

Bell Beaker sherds were found beside the ancient copper mines in the south of Ireland. It seems to me that the miners liked a few drinks after a hard days work 4,500 years ago. The miners of today do the same.
The Amesbury archer could belong to R1a or any other haplogroup.

[ironroad41]

Russell Gray and Quentin Atkinson developed a glottochronology for Proto-Indo-European that the consensus of IE experts believes is seriously flawed, since it requires PIE to remain essentially unchanged for much too long a time.

David Anthony discusses it at length in his book, The Horse the Wheel and Language.

It was archaeologist Colin Renfrew who first introduced the Anatolian Neolithic hypothesis for the origin of Indo-European. It is an appealing hypothesis, but there are too many holes in it.

You have a selective mind I see. What causes a language to change? In the case of English - English and Ameican - English; I would argue it was the influence of other cultures and languages. But who was around and how many in 8 to 6 BC? The World population was some 4 to 5 M!! How old are the native languages in the US, Na Tene for instance?

If R is from Siberia, What prevents R1a or R1b from going W along the Northern E/W corridor at some point in time and possibly returning as things worsened c. 6 to 8 KBC??

All the data, taken together, has to make sense. To me, to date, it doesn't.

[1798]

You have a selective mind I see. What causes a language to change? In the case of English - English and Ameican - English; I would argue it was the influence of other cultures and languages. But who was around and how many in 8 to 6 BC? The World population was some 4 to 5 M!! How old are the native languages in the US, Na Tene for instance?

If R is from Siberia, What prevents R1a or R1b from going W along the Northern E/W corridor at some point in time and possibly returning as things worsened c. 6 to 8 KBC??

All the data, taken together, has to make sense. To me, to date, it doesn't.

He(stevo)can't see the wood for the trees.

[Stevo]

Bell Beaker sherds were found beside the ancient copper mines in the south of Ireland. It seems to me that the miners liked a few drinks after a hard days work 4,500 years ago. The miners of today do the same.
The Amesbury archer could belong to R1a or any other haplogroup.

He could be, but he was part of the Beaker Folk, and the only Beaker Folk y-dna thus far recovered was R1b (U106-).

R1b got to Ireland and the British Isles somehow, and we know the Beaker Folk began arriving there in the Copper Age.

[Stevo]

You have a selective mind I see. What causes a language to change? In the case of English - English and Ameican - English; I would argue it was the influence of other cultures and languages. But who was around and how many in 8 to 6 BC? The World population was some 4 to 5 M!! How old are the native languages in the US, Na Tene for instance?

Read Anthony's book. Read Mallory's book, In Search of the Indo-Europeans. Read Jean Manco's book, Ancestral Journeys, which is very current on the latest genetic research.

If R is from Siberia, What prevents R1a or R1b from going W along the Northern E/W corridor at some point in time and possibly returning as things worsened c. 6 to 8 KBC??

Nothing, but it does not look like that is what happened.

If R1b was present in Europe before the Copper Age, it should be turning up in ancient y-dna finds from the Neolithic at least, but it's not.

There were big changes in Europe in the late Neolithic/Copper/Bronze Ages, including the switch to Indo-European languages, the introduction of metallurgy and of the use of horses, among other things. Somehow all those things came about, and Europe became predominantly R1b.

All the data, taken together, has to make sense. To me, to date, it doesn't.

The old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge theory of eight years or more ago never made much sense to me. It needed the special pleading of arbitrary "bottlenecks" for its existence.

[1798]

He could be, but he was part of the Beaker Folk, and the only Beaker Folk y-dna thus far recovered was R1b (U106-).

R1b got to Ireland and the British Isles somehow, and we know the Beaker Folk began arriving there in the Copper Age.

We all use mobile phones. We don't have to belong in the same subclade to be able to use them. R1b arrived in the Isles some time since the end of the last Ice-Age.

[ironroad41]

; How old are the native languages in the US, Na Tene for instance?

I'll answer my own question. Na Tene(Da Tene) is the language of the Navajo, an Athabascan language with about 12 or more dialects. It hasn't changed much in 12K to 15K years, depending on how you date the Siberia to Alaska migration. It is different however from the Algonquin language(s) spoken in the Eastern U.S. (Iroquois,e.g.) and also different from most S.A. languages.

I don't know how long I.E. existed, but not much more than this, just an opinion.

[ironroad41]

If R1b was present in Europe before the Copper Age, it should be turning up in ancient y-dna finds from the Neolithic at least, but it's not.

Response: Talk to Rathna. He has a list of L51, L11 persons who are/or their ancestors were present in Europe. If you mean "grave sites", than, to date, you are correct.


The old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge theory of eight years or more ago never made much sense to me. It needed the special pleading of arbitrary "bottlenecks" for its existence.

.

The Storegga Tsunami and Flood are not special pleading. They are well documented events and there timing is generally known. To say that the survivors didn't move to the high ground would be naïve. The population of the World was the same from 10K to 4K; its not hard to imagine that part of that lack of growth may have been a "disaster" in NE? I don't necessarily ascribe to the FC Refuge theory either, because everyone was living in NE during the early Holocene?

[N21163]

We all use mobile phones. We don't have to belong in the same subclade to be able to use them. R1b arrived in the Isles some time since the end of the last Ice-Age.

A somewhat misguided analogy.

"We all use mobile phones"

....because we have been exposed to this technology, informed about its development and it has been made readily available.

The technology that we know today was developed by two people at Motorola in 1973. This technology has been refined from earlier portable car phone and radio phones.

DNA evidence from Copper Age samples have been confirmed. DNA samples since the end of the last ice age, have not.

[1798]

A somewhat misguided analogy.

"We all use mobile phones"

....because we have been exposed to this technology, informed about its development and it has been made readily available.

The technology that we know today was developed by two people at Motorola in 1973. This technology has been refined from earlier portable car phone and radio phones.

DNA evidence from Copper Age samples have been confirmed. DNA samples since the end of the last ice age, have not.

Anyone who says that only men who were R-P312 were able to use Bell Beakers is misguided.

[ironroad41]

DNA evidence from Copper Age samples have been confirmed. DNA samples since the end of the last ice age, have not.

We have evidence of Mastodons in France after the last ice age, and similarly we have evidence of Mastodons in Siberia. Haplogroup Q is believed to be of Siberian origin, similarly, Malta'a man, haplogroup R is found in Siberia.

The evidence is that the Trade Winds, move South and North depending on the global temperature. Prior to about 5 to 6K BC, the Trades Winds ran in a Southerly E/W route, making the Sahara habitable, and southern Europe less so and northern Europe more so ( this has been confirmed by the Peat Bogs found in Northern Europe and Siberia about that time period.)

So what we have is a venue for the Hunter/Gatherer existing in Northern Europe/Siberian corridor at that time. Q apparently went East and given the climate at that time, R probably went West?

The model I am synthesizing fits the temperature and food source data. I believe the more plausible explanation of R is concerned with this E/W corridor from at least the Holocene forward and possibly even prior to that. This is where R was born and the climate of that time dictated his movements?

[Stevo]

Anyone who says that only men who were R-P312 were able to use Bell Beakers is misguided.

No one has said anything like that. The Beaker Folk, although named for their characteristic drinking cups, were more than just people who used a certain kind of pottery. They were a distinct people with a package of characteristics, including physical characteristics.

The Beaker Folk had the horse, the plow, wheeled vehicles, and woolly sheep. They buried their important dead, for the most part, lying on their sides in single graves under a mound of earth, often with a set of grave goods that included an archer's wrist guard, arrowheads, and, naturally, the characteristic bell beaker.

The Beaker Folk, especially the males, stood out from the native populations of the areas in which they settled. They were taller, with robust skeletons and brachycephalic (round) skulls.

[Stevo]

.

The Storegga Tsunami and Flood are not special pleading. They are well documented events and there timing is generally known. To say that the survivors didn't move to the high ground would be naïve. The population of the World was the same from 10K to 4K; its not hard to imagine that part of that lack of growth may have been a "disaster" in NE? I don't necessarily ascribe to the FC Refuge theory either, because everyone was living in NE during the early Holocene?

I said the bottlenecks offered to explain the apparent youth of western European R1b were a form of special pleading.

The Storegga Tsunami and Flood you mentioned are irrelevant if R1b was nowhere near the areas they impacted.

The FC Refuge theory was based on the antiquated, 19th-century notion that the Basques were some kind of Paleolithic relic population, an idea long since debunked.

[ironroad41]

The Storegga Tsunami and Flood you mentioned are irrelevant if R1b was nowhere near the areas they impacted.

Given the climactic conditions of the time prior to 6K BC; and given a possible R source in Siberia? Where would R1b have lived in that time frame. If you argue only the steppes of Eastern Europe; then I'll argue the Baltic Sea region of Northern Europe. I see no problem with many back/forth scenarios between those two regions prior to 6K BC??

[Stevo]

Given the climactic conditions of the time prior to 6K BC; and given a possible R source in Siberia? Where would R1b have lived in that time frame. If you argue only the steppes of Eastern Europe; then I'll argue the Baltic Sea region of Northern Europe. I see no problem with many back/forth scenarios between those two regions prior to 6K BC??

The SNP trail currently seems to indicate a place of origin for R1b between the Black and Caspian Seas in the vicinity of northern Iran. That may be off a little, but probably not too far.

There is no similar evidence for the Baltic region, although it might be a candidate for the later (Bronze Age) appearance of U106.

There is no problem with any scenario anyone wants to put forth - except that of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.