Doggerland

[1798]

As you probably know, the terms Mesolithic and Neolithic are relative terms depending on what part of the world you are talking about. In Western Europe, You might use the period of 10-12K to about 6K as Mesolithic and Neolithic after that to the Bronze, Iron and more modern ages. The spread of the Neolithic is associated with the spread of Farming.

At the same time as Northern Europe was decimated, the Black Sea was flooded and changed to a partial saline environment. Forces such as these cause population decimation and displacements. I'm not sure when and where L11 was born, but he probably wasn't direcly involved, being probably born prior to these events.

Population growth was then slow in WE until 5K to 4K BC, at which time the P312 and subclades began to successfully grow their populations to what we have today.

We don't know when there was population growth. We can only assume that it was during the Neolithic which began in the Middle East more than 10,000 years ago. It is hard to believe that it took 4000 years to reach western Europe. There are six SNPs in the L11 bottleneck that we know of which must have lasted around 900-1000 years.
Where this group lived between 10,000 and 6000 years ago is important to the whole R1b story in western Europe.
Has L11,P312 and u106 been found in ancient remains in Anatolia?

[Stevo]

Michal says that Big-Y SNPs could be 150 years apart and two men in my group have 40 each downstream of Z156.
It is your personal opinion which you seem to like repeating with no evidence. Frequency has nothing to do with origin. Those are your words. R1b frequency in Ireland or Iberia for example.

The same guy recently gave 91 years as an approximate estimate over at Anthrogenica. Nothing against him or anyone else, but take such age estimates with a huge grain of salt.

Frequency is not the only factor. Historical evidence is another, along with the distribution of U106 and its clades, which is overwhelmingly Germanic.

But we've been over this ground many many times already.

[Stevo]

We don't know when there was population growth. We can only assume that it was during the Neolithic which began in the Middle East more than 10,000 years ago. It is hard to believe that it took 4000 years to reach western Europe. There are six SNPs in the L11 bottleneck that we know of which must have lasted around 900-1000 years.
Where this group lived between 10,000 and 6000 years ago is important to the whole R1b story in western Europe.
Has L11,P312 and u106 been found in ancient remains in Anatolia?

We do know about some population trends from archaeology. For example, there was a downturn in population in the British Isles and Ireland at the end of the Neolithic Period. In the Copper Age and on into the Bronze Age, the Beaker Folk began to arrive from the Continent, apparently bringing metallurgy with them: The Beaker Folk.

They may have been the vehicle for R1b in the Isles, as well, since the only Beaker Folk y-dna thus far recovered was R1b (U106-).

We don't have any ancient y-dna from Anatolia yet, although the BEAN Project is working on it.

It isn't likely any very ancient P312 or U106 will be found in Anatolia. They probably arose somewhere in Europe.

[ironroad41]

We don't know when there was population growth. We can only assume that it was during the Neolithic which began in the Middle East more than 10,000 years ago. It is hard to believe that it took 4000 years to reach western Europe. There are six SNPs in the L11 bottleneck that we know of which must have lasted around 900-1000 years.
Where this group lived between 10,000 and 6000 years ago is important to the whole R1b story in western Europe.
Has L11,P312 and u106 been found in ancient remains in Anatolia?

Using DNA analyses, either STR or SNP, cannot provide geographical information. Now population growth appears to be different. Dense tree branching under one founder such as R L-21, indicates to me that there was population growth sometime after the R L-21 founder. But, it is by inference we deduce that not by some manipulation of the data, the same can be said for geographical info, one may infer a more probable scenario of HG displacement in a broad sense, but, again, it is all through inference.

To answer your question, I would recommend you read/reread Busbys paper. Most migration maps place P312 and U106 in WE, not Anatolia. The early L's are argumentative and ,I believe, currently not well known as to place of origin.

My best answer, WAG, is that some measure of R1b lived in Northern Europe until 6KBC (probably there and in Siberia). With the shift of the trade winds southward about 6K to 5K BC, Southern Europes climate improved, North Africa became a desert and this weather pattern has since prevailed. ( My view is that you can look at climate changes as forces which can cause population displacements).

[1798]

Using DNA analyses, either STR or SNP, cannot provide geographical information. Now population growth appears to be different. Dense tree branching under one founder such as R L-21, indicates to me that there was population growth sometime after the R L-21 founder. But, it is by inference we deduce that not by some manipulation of the data, the same can be said for geographical info, one may infer a more probable scenario of HG displacement in a broad sense, but, again, it is all through inference.

To answer your question, I would recommend you read/reread Busbys paper. Most migration maps place P312 and U106 in WE, not Anatolia. The early L's are argumentative and ,I believe, currently not well known as to place of origin.

My best answer, WAG, is that some measure of R1b lived in Northern Europe until 6KBC (probably there and in Siberia). With the shift of the trade winds southward about 6K to 5K BC, Southern Europes climate improved, North Africa became a desert and this weather pattern has since prevailed. ( My view is that you can look at climate changes as forces which can cause population displacements).

The Megalithic tomb builders of Ireland 6000 years ago were farmers. Some of those tomb builders must have been R1b. When they are able to test some ancient remains from that period we will find which type of R1b.

[MMaddi]

Where this group lived between 10,000 and 6000 years ago is important to the whole R1b story in western Europe.
Has L11,P312 and u106 been found in ancient remains in Anatolia?

I'm guessing that you'll be consistent and ignore the evidence (inconvenient for your theory) that we do have so far. But I must point out, as I and others have done repeatedly, that the earliest finding of R1b in ancient remains anywhere, not just in Anatolia, is from remains in present day Germany. And those remains are 4,600 years old.

No R1b has been found in older remains. The clear majority haplogroup of European remains in the period of 5,000 to 7,000 years ago is G2 of some sort. At the point that someone finds even one case of R1b in remains older than 5,000 years ago in Europe I'll start taking your theory seriously. Until then, you have no evidence to back it up.

[1798]

I'm guessing that you'll be consistent and ignore the evidence (inconvenient for your theory) that we do have so far. But I must point out, as I and others have done repeatedly, that the earliest finding of R1b in ancient remains anywhere, not just in Anatolia, is from remains in present day Germany. And those remains are 4,600 years old.

No R1b has been found in older remains. The clear majority haplogroup of European remains in the period of 5,000 to 7,000 years ago is G2 of some sort. At the point that someone finds even one case of R1b in remains older than 5,000 years ago in Europe I'll start taking your theory seriously. Until then, you have no evidence to back it up.

Where is the place of origin of L11 and the L11 bottleneck? The WAMH is the ancestral haplotype for L11 and has the highest frequency in the Isles and is found there in multiple branches. Can you explain the reason for that?

[MMaddi]

Where is the place of origin of L11 and the L11 bottleneck? The WAMH is the ancestral haplotype for L11 and has the highest frequency in the Isles and is found there in multiple branches. Can you explain the reason for that?

As I suspected, you have no answer for the clear evidence that makes your theory almost surely wrong. Do you just want to reject the results of DNA testing of ancient remains?

All your gyrations about the highest frequency of WAMH today tell us nothing about the origin, direction and timing of migration into Europe of R1b. If you want to know that, you'll have to look at what testing of ancient remains tells us.

[Stevo]

The Megalithic tomb builders of Ireland 6000 years ago were farmers. Some of those tomb builders must have been R1b. When they are able to test some ancient remains from that period we will find which type of R1b.

Why must they have been R1b? No R1b that old has yet been found anywhere.

There has been some y-dna recovered from a Neolithic megalithic tomb, however. Two sets of male remains from the Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte (c. 2800 BC) in France, just west of Paris, were I2 (probably I-M26, based on their STRs).

[1798]

As I suspected, you have no answer for the clear evidence that makes your theory almost surely wrong. Do you just want to reject the results of DNA testing of ancient remains?

All your gyrations about the highest frequency of WAMH today tell us nothing about the origin, direction and timing of migration into Europe of R1b. If you want to know that, you'll have to look at what testing of ancient remains tells us.

You keep telling me that I am wrong and yet you can't answer the question I asked. Where is the birthplace of L11? It should be simple enough for you.
A genetic scientist in Ireland said that the majority of people on the Island today are descended from the Megalithic tomb builders. The majority of the people on the Island belong to two haplogroups Y R1b and Mt H.

[Stevo]

Based on the SNP trail, it looks like L11 probably arose somewhere in eastern or southeastern Europe.

Being descended from megalithic tomb builders does not necessarily mean one belongs to the same y haplogroup or haplogroups that they did. It is not at all likely that R1b entered Ireland before the Copper Age at the earliest.

As I mentioned a couple of posts earlier, the only y-dna thus far recovered from a megalithic tomb was I2, not R1b.

[MMaddi]

You keep telling me that I am wrong and yet you can't answer the question I asked. Where is the birthplace of L11? It should be simple enough for you.
A genetic scientist in Ireland said that the majority of people on the Island today are descended from the Megalithic tomb builders. The majority of the people on the Island belong to two haplogroups Y R1b and Mt H.

If you understood what I just replied to you, you'd understand that answering your question is not dealing with the evidence that's been brought forward to you many times over the last several years.

But just to satisfy you, I'll answer the question, even though no one can answer it with certainty. You ask, "Where is the birthplace of L11?" A good guesstimate of that is probably somewhere in eastern Europe, maybe in the area of the lower Danube river. See Dr. Hammer's presentation to the FTDNA conference in November last year - https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf.

Concentrate on understanding these slides - 11, 15-16 and 19 - if you're seriously willing to consider whether your theory stands up to what the evidence shows. Hammer refers to P311, which is equivalent to L11, so he is answering your question.

[royfarnol]

Here's wishing the Doggerland squad success in Brazil come June 12th.

[1798]

If you understood what I just replied to you, you'd understand that answering your question is not dealing with the evidence that's been brought forward to you many times over the last several years.

But just to satisfy you, I'll answer the question, even though no one can answer it with certainty. You ask, "Where is the birthplace of L11?" A good guesstimate of that is probably somewhere in eastern Europe, maybe in the area of the lower Danube river. See Dr. Hammer's presentation to the FTDNA conference in November last year - https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf.

Concentrate on understanding these slides - 11, 15-16 and 19 - if you're seriously willing to consider whether your theory stands up to what the evidence shows. Hammer refers to P311, which is equivalent to L11, so he is answering your question.

I think that it was copied from Eupedia and is a load of nonsense. L11 is above P311 in the FTDNA Y-tree and I believe that L11 is a Mesolithic marker.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Stevo]

I think that it was copied from Eupedia and is a load of nonsense. L11 is above P311 in the FTDNA Y-tree and I believe that L11 is a Mesolithic marker.

Dr. Hammer used a couple of maps from Eupedia, but they were not essential to his presentation, which was his work.

Now that we have what you "believe", let's have a little evidence to support it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You know, I hear people repeat that aphorism again and again, but does it make sense, really?

Absence of evidence, or just plain absence, is a form of circumstantial evidence. The more one looks and does not find, the more he becomes convinced that the thing he sought just is not present where he was looking.

If I misplace my car keys, have looked under the bed, but failed to find them there, a few more tries might be worthwhile, because I might have missed something. But looking 100 or 200 times because, well, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", would just be a waste of time. It's not likely my keys are under the bed.