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  • Doggerland

    If the scientists want to find the dna of the people of Doggerland all they have to do is find the matching dna from the east coast of Britain and the Low Countries.
    There have been a lot of people killed in tsunamis in the past twenty years but their dna lives on in the survivors.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    If the scientists want to find the dna of the people of Doggerland all they have to do is find the matching dna from the east coast of Britain and the Low Countries.
    There have been a lot of people killed in tsunamis in the past twenty years but their dna lives on in the survivors.
    It is my understanding that Doggerland disappeared some ~8500 years ago, whereas the major paternal haplogroups around the North Sea coalesce much afterward.
    Last edited by pyromatic; 26 March 2014, 05:24 PM. Reason: Clarity

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    • #3
      Yeah, well, don't forget my Mesolithic maternal line; U5b2b2. They may have not have arrived from the south yet, though.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by pyromatic View Post
        It is my understanding that Doggerland disappeared some ~8500 years ago, whereas the major paternal haplogroups around the North Sea coalesce much afterward.
        That has yet to be determined.The end of the Ice Age was a gradual process so also was the beginning which gave the people of north western Europe lots of time to move to a warmer climate.At the end of the Ice Age their descendants moved back north.

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        • #5
          My point is that the founders of these lines found in southeast England and the lowlands lived after Doggerland disappeared. Additionally, there is mounting evidence that the people who live in Europe now descend only in small part from those who were there in the paleolithic and mesolithic eras with the majority of our ancestry being derived from expansion of peoples in the late neolithic. So I don't think you can safely conclude that the haplogroups you find today in strong frequencies there would be those you find there 8,000 years ago.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by pyromatic View Post
            My point is that the founders of these lines found in southeast England and the lowlands lived after Doggerland disappeared. Additionally, there is mounting evidence that the people who live in Europe now descend only in small part from those who were there in the paleolithic and mesolithic eras with the majority of our ancestry being derived from expansion of peoples in the late neolithic. So I don't think you can safely conclude that the haplogroups you find today in strong frequencies there would be those you find there 8,000 years ago.
            Most Europeans have between 1% and 3% Neanderthal autosomal dna after 40,000 years, so how much autosomal dna do you think could still be found in western Europeans from that region after 8,000 years?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              Most Europeans have between 1% and 3% Neanderthal autosomal dna after 40,000 years, so how much autosomal dna do you think could still be found in western Europeans from that region after 8,000 years?
              I don't know. It's conceivable that the people living in Doggerland in the mesolithic might resemble the Loschbour sample or perhaps the Motala samples described in the Lazaridis paper from this past December.

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              • #8
                R1b displaced G2

                This is worth reading on this topic of who dominates western europe and did R1b arrive late neolithic.

                Dr Hammer is ftDNA chief scientist and this presentation is pretty much the current thinking on how R1b arrived and when.

                In a nutshell late neolithic and in a very short time frame displaced the dominant G2 Y lines.

                https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf

                Cheers DSM

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by dsm View Post
                  This is worth reading on this topic of who dominates western europe and did R1b arrive late neolithic.

                  Dr Hammer is ftDNA chief scientist and this presentation is pretty much the current thinking on how R1b arrived and when.

                  In a nutshell late neolithic and in a very short time frame displaced the dominant G2 Y lines.

                  https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf

                  Cheers DSM
                  What about the 90% R1b in the Iberian peninsula and Ireland.It is strange that of the two regions with the most R1b, one was a refuge and the other wasn't

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                  • #10
                    What matters is NOT where there is the most R1b. What counts is the diversity in R1b samples & as many folks have mentioned over the last 6 months to a year, that place is Anatolia, NOT Iberia or Ireland.

                    Timothy Peterman

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                      What matters is NOT where there is the most R1b. What counts is the diversity in R1b samples & as many folks have mentioned over the last 6 months to a year, that place is Anatolia, NOT Iberia or Ireland.

                      Timothy Peterman
                      Diversity equals age not origin.

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                      • #12
                        SNP diversity matters, too, and the R1b in Iberia is overwhelmingly DF27.

                        R1b and its closest cousins, i.e., P, Q, R1a, R2, etc., are all found in close proximity in Asia, and the SNP trail from M343 to M269 to L23 to L51 to L11, and on to P312 and U106, leads from Asia northwest into the Balkans and onward to the Atlantic.

                        This is further supported by the evidence of ancient y-dna thus far. Mesolithic and Neolithic sites in what are today R1b-rich zones have all been without any R1b. The oldest R1b thus far found is from the Copper Age Bell Beaker site at Kromsdorf, Germany, circa 2600 BC. The Beaker Folk are thought to have been Indo-European and to have spread an early form of Italo-Celtic to the west.

                        If there were people occupying Doggerland before it sank beneath the waves of the North Sea over 8,000 years ago, it is not likely any of them was R1b.

                        Ancient European Y-DNA (to about 1000 BC)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                          SNP diversity matters, too, and the R1b in Iberia is overwhelmingly DF27.

                          R1b and its closest cousins, i.e., P, Q, R1a, R2, etc., are all found in close proximity in Asia, and the SNP trail from M343 to M269 to L23 to L51 to L11, and on to P312 and U106, leads from Asia northwest into the Balkans and onward to the Atlantic.

                          This is further supported by the evidence of ancient y-dna thus far. Mesolithic and Neolithic sites in what are today R1b-rich zones have all been without any R1b. The oldest R1b thus far found is from the Copper Age Bell Beaker site at Kromsdorf, Germany, circa 2600 BC. The Beaker Folk are thought to have been Indo-European and to have spread an early form of Italo-Celtic to the west.

                          If there were people occupying Doggerland before it sank beneath the waves of the North Sea over 8,000 years ago, it is not likely any of them was R1b.

                          Ancient European Y-DNA (to about 1000 BC)
                          R1b is 25-30,000 years old and Doggerland sank 8000 ybp. If you are saying that SNP diversity equals origin that is good news.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                            R1b is 25-30,000 years old and Doggerland sank 8000 ybp. If you are saying that SNP diversity equals origin that is good news.
                            Hopefully, you didn't miss the rest of my post: no R1b in Doggerland or anywhere near it 8,000+ years ago.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                              Hopefully, you didn't miss the rest of my post: no R1b in Doggerland or anywhere near it 8,000+ years ago.
                              There is a lot of ancient dna testing yet to be done so it is too early to make statements like that.We are at the beginning of a process not the end.

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