Linking male family Y-DNA results.

[dwmyers]

Sirs,

I just transferred results from Nat Geo Geno 2.0 to ftDNA. My father has an older (2011) STR Y-DNA 67 test. It would be nice if people who match my Dad could see my SNP results. I can't match, at this point, so I don't care.

At this point, if I want additional SNP work done, I have to pay over 150 dollars for a test my father already had done, and then $39 a SNP. If I want additional SNP work done .. R-P310, U106-, P312-, CTS4528- is rare, on a cost basis I'll be pushed to YSEQ, whether I want to or not.

Any suggestions.. who to talk to about this, recommended.

Thx,

David.

[prairielad]

Not familiar with how in depth Nat Geo tests, but all you would have to do is order on your fathers kit the SNP ($39) that defines the subclade you where given at Nat Geo.(providing they offer that SNP test)
Via his haplotree and SNP page

It will be a given that he will be positive for each SNP below that one.

[Jim Barrett]

You can join your surname project with your NatGeo results and then add a Y-DNA12 test for $59. Not all surname projects include the 12 marker test but many do.

You can also add your known SNP to the most distant paternal information for your dad's kit. If you currently have this as Jack Myers change it to SNP name Jack Myers. This will show up when others see him as a match.

[Armando]

Sirs,

I just transferred results from Nat Geo Geno 2.0 to ftDNA. My father has an older (2011) STR Y-DNA 67 test. It would be nice if people who match my Dad could see my SNP results. I can't match, at this point, so I don't care.

At this point, if I want additional SNP work done, I have to pay over 150 dollars for a test my father already had done, and then $39 a SNP. If I want additional SNP work done .. R-P310, U106-, P312-, CTS4528- is rare, on a cost basis I'll be pushed to YSEQ, whether I want to or not.

Any suggestions.. who to talk to about this, recommended.

Thx,

David.

Nat Geo Geno 2.0 did not test you or anyone else for P312. Why do you think you or your father is negative for P312? Was he tested at FTDNA for P312?

The only other subclade under P310+ is A8051 per YFull at https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/. Geno 2.0 did not test for any of those A8051 SNPs. I cross referenced them between a Geno 2.0 file and the ISOGG list of SNPs for R1b1a1a2a1a4, R1b1a1a2a1a4a, and R1b1a1a2a1a4b. The R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack at FTDNA doesn't test for them either but is does test for P310, U106, P312, and CTS4528 so if you were to get that test it would show you as R-P310, U106-, P312-, CTS4528- if you really are P312-. Getting the R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack would be cheaper than getting all four of those tested separately and you results would be seen in your project and by your matches.

Getting tested by the Yseq R1b pack wouldn't help you much except to confirm what Geno 2.0 showed for your father. Then you would have to get the A8051 SNPs tested separately.

If you really want to find your own subclade you need a BigY test and not the other testing that you have been looking at. However, if you or your father have not had SNP testing anywhere except Geno 2.0 then you are very likely to be P312+ and also very likely to be DF27+.

[dwmyers]

I don't have access at this point to the M343 test but my father does. He did the STR 67 test. His closest match did a STR 111 test. They're both eligible.

Did someone say somewhere if I do Family Finder (cheap at the moment) I get access to SNP testing without paying nearly $200 for STR testing?

Just want to confirm that, if so.

David.

[The_Contemplator]

Why do you want to do more SNP testing? Do you manage you father's kit? If you want you can order a Y12 for yourself to have an STR test. It costs $59. To order it you need to do it through a group project. Find it here.

Just remember if you want to test as many SNPs as you can, the Big Y is your best option. It will find SNPs only you and your closest paternal relatives will have. These you won't find in any SNP Pack or single SNP test because they haven't been discovered yet. Big Y discovers new SNPs as well as the known old ones.

[dwmyers]

Just remember if you want to test as many SNPs as you can, the Big Y is your best option.

Actually, it's not. If money is no object, there is another company whose product covers more SNPs than ftDNA's Big Y does.

http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_SNP_testing_chart

So again, let me ask: why am I paying for a useless STR kit to get access to SNPs? Any kit I buy won't be as nice as the one my father has already purchased. Why can't ftDNA come up with business practice that accommodate families?

This is at the heart of my posting this in **feature requests**. I shouldn't have to pay a penny to get at SNPs. There should be some way to accommodate people who are already closely related.

David.

[MMaddi]

Nat Geo Geno 2.0 did not test you or anyone else for P312. Why do you think you or your father is negative for P312? Was he tested at FTDNA for P312?

The only other subclade under P310+ is A8051 per YFull at https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/. Geno 2.0 did not test for any of those A8051 SNPs. I cross referenced them between a Geno 2.0 file and the ISOGG list of SNPs for R1b1a1a2a1a4, R1b1a1a2a1a4a, and R1b1a1a2a1a4b. The R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack at FTDNA doesn't test for them either but is does test for P310, U106, P312, and CTS4528 so if you were to get that test it would show you as R-P310, U106-, P312-, CTS4528- if you really are P312-. Getting the R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack would be cheaper than getting all four of those tested separately and you results would be seen in your project and by your matches.

Getting tested by the Yseq R1b pack wouldn't help you much except to confirm what Geno 2.0 showed for your father. Then you would have to get the A8051 SNPs tested separately.

If you really want to find your own subclade you need a BigY test and not the other testing that you have been looking at. However, if you or your father have not had SNP testing anywhere except Geno 2.0 then you are very likely to be P312+ and also very likely to be DF27+.

I'm responding to Armando's post because he makes a very important point which the OP should consider. I understand the OP's reason for posting in this forum - he doesn't like the FTDNA policy of not linking the results of close family members. That's certainly a valid viewpoint, but he'd have to convince FTDNA to change their policy.

However, I don't think the OP is considering the point that Armando makes in what I've quoted from him. It's not clear yet whether the OP and his father are P312- or not, since Geno 2.0 doesn't test that SNP. So, even if he convinces FTDNA to link his and his father's results, that still doesn't answer the question of the paternal line's SNP status.

As Armando points out, he and his father are likely P312+, given how prevalent that is among R1b men with European ancestry. If the OP is at all interested in finding out the SNP status of his paternal line, as he seems to be, at the very least he should order the P312 test for $39. If he wants to go much further down the branch and wants his matches at FTDNA to see his SNP status, then he'll have to order the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP test or, better, Big Y.

He can order the more comprehensive NGS test that he referred to, but, since that's with another company, the results won't show up in FTDNA account or be seen by his matches. Of course, he can add that information manually to his account as Jim Barrett mentions above.

[dwmyers]

Actually I did take Armando seriously. I've read his work on other this and other forums and at times he comes off as the Donald Trump of the Nat Geo test. His bias makes him hard to take seriously at times. That said, I regarded his argument seriously enough I've written my father, my brother, and my Dad's closest match about the issue.

There were reasons we (my wife was tested as well) wanted the Nat Geo test. We had done the autosomal test from Ancestry previously. My wife is half Micronesian and half Japanese. The breakdown of her ethnicity by Ancestry was pretty weird, because they lacked a Southeast Asian/Oceania basis population. The Polynesian basis that Ancestry uses is a poor substitute when people have substantial Melanesian or Micronesian background. And Nat Geo has a Southeast Asian/Oceania (read: Austronesian) reference population.

The test my dad did 6 years ago was a gift from my brother. I'm convinced he didn't understand it entirely, and his closest match, who paid for the STR 111, both have a edge that makes them sound personally frustrated by the results and a little resentful as to their opacity.

So, at this point, I have to gauge their willingness to do a test all over again. The cost of the M343 backbone is not the issue. It's dealing with men of a certain age who may not want the hassle anymore.

And in terms of the family tree business model, I'm slowly becoming convinced that ftDNA couldn't sell ice on the equator. Placing monetary gotchas makes me mad. And cost at one level isn't the issue, it's maddening to be constantly nickeled and dimed, to be forced to purchase information that as a family, we already possess.

If it were just the haplotype issue, this would be in another forum. It's not. I think the people at Family Tree need to ask how much fun it would be if you always had to pay, say, 10 to 30 dollars to park before you could eat. And even if you shared the same car, that everyone in the car would be charged that amount.

David.

[Armando]

I can lead a horse to water........

[teyoung]

I think the people at Family Tree need to ask how much fun it would be if you always had to pay, say, 10 to 30 dollars to park before you could eat. And even if you shared the same car, that everyone in the car would be charged that amount.

Here I am guessing again, but I think the reason for requiring a Y test first is because that cost includes the DNA extraction. Y upgrades are less expensive for just this reason. It is likely that the cost of SNP testing presumes the DNA has already been prepared for testing. If not, I expect the individual and SNP Pack tests would be more expensive. In your analogy above, you could order dessert without paying to park again. Just thought.

[Armando]

Actually I did take Armando seriously. I've read his work on other this and other forums and at times he comes off as the Donald Trump of the Nat Geo test. His bias makes him hard to take seriously at times. That said, I regarded his argument seriously enough I've written my father, my brother, and my Dad's closest match about the issue.

Food for thought. The reason that I have brought up the failures of Geno 2.0 is because it affects people in the exact same way that it has affected you. You do not know if you are P312-, or P312+ DF27-, or P312+ DF27+. Those are SNPs that are so common in western Europe and Latin America that at least P312 should have been included since it is so easy to test. DF27 is more problematic to test so that is understandable but testees should be made aware what they haven't been tested for. The Geno 2.0 site does not provide negative SNPs and FTDNA does not receive negative SNPs from Geno 2.0 either. So that is also a problem because the customer does not get all the information that they should get. These are facts and not fictional stats analogous to those of politicians or businessmen attempting to get elected or politicians attempting to get laws passed. If a person can't understand the difference then of course they are going to misinterpret facts as mudslinging.

[MMaddi]

Actually I did take Armando seriously. I've read his work on other this and other forums and at times he comes off as the Donald Trump of the Nat Geo test. His bias makes him hard to take seriously at times. That said, I regarded his argument seriously enough I've written my father, my brother, and my Dad's closest match about the issue.

There were reasons we (my wife was tested as well) wanted the Nat Geo test. We had done the autosomal test from Ancestry previously. My wife is half Micronesian and half Japanese. The breakdown of her ethnicity by Ancestry was pretty weird, because they lacked a Southeast Asian/Oceania basis population. The Polynesian basis that Ancestry uses is a poor substitute when people have substantial Melanesian or Micronesian background. And Nat Geo has a Southeast Asian/Oceania (read: Austronesian) reference population.

The test my dad did 6 years ago was a gift from my brother. I'm convinced he didn't understand it entirely, and his closest match, who paid for the STR 111, both have a edge that makes them sound personally frustrated by the results and a little resentful as to their opacity.

So, at this point, I have to gauge their willingness to do a test all over again. The cost of the M343 backbone is not the issue. It's dealing with men of a certain age who may not want the hassle anymore.

And in terms of the family tree business model, I'm slowly becoming convinced that ftDNA couldn't sell ice on the equator. Placing monetary gotchas makes me mad. And cost at one level isn't the issue, it's maddening to be constantly nickeled and dimed, to be forced to purchase information that as a family, we already possess.

If it were just the haplotype issue, this would be in another forum. It's not. I think the people at Family Tree need to ask how much fun it would be if you always had to pay, say, 10 to 30 dollars to park before you could eat. And even if you shared the same car, that everyone in the car would be charged that amount.

David.

One thing that's not clear to me is to what purpose you're resorting to yDNA testing of your paternal line. If you're interested in deep ancestry and SNP testing, then Geno 2.0 has failed you. I suggest that the best thing for you to do now is to join your father's and your yDNA results to the appropriate haplogroup project. (You'll be happy to know that that's free.) The administrators of the project, knowing that you and your father are closely related can put your father's STR results without SNP results in the appropriate subgroup based on your Geno 2.0 results, although there still is the question of whether you're P312+ or not. They may be able to make an educated guess about a deeper subclade based on the STR results, which may fit a subclade or cluster modal. But they can also advise you about the best SNP testing strategy, if you want to pursue that.

So, now you found out that Geno 2.0 met the special testing needs of your wife's ancestry, but isn't giving you the full picture of your paternal line, just a partial picture. Obviously, it's not perfect, so maybe Armando has a point about this aspect of Geno 2.0.

We're trying to answer your questions and give you suggestions about how to deal with your test results. I thought that Armando was presenting essential information about your SNP status, which Geno 2.0 was not providing you.

I guess your accusing him of being the Trump of genetic genealogy is what he gets for more fully informing you than Geno 2.0 did about their test!

Sorry, we didn't meet your expectations. Next time I won't bother trying to help you if you have any other questions come up. I suggest other posters trying to be helpful do the same.

[The_Contemplator]

Actually, it's not. If money is no object, there is another company whose product covers more SNPs than ftDNA's Big Y does.

It is the best option here where you get matching. Anyways either one will get you further than any SNP Pack will.

So again, let me ask: why am I paying for a useless STR kit to get access to SNPs?

This is actually the first time you asked. If by "get access to SNPs" you mean get to order them, you actually can do that without any STR test. I just don't know if FTDNA will display them, but I vaguely recall that they probably do. You should contact them just to be safe.

Log onto the kit, click "Upgrade" found at the top of the window. Then go to Advanced Tests and click "Buy Now". In the "Test Type" you can pick SNP Pack or SNP depending on what you want to order. Then you add and click order now. You will then be in the cart with a warning. If you are sure the test is right for you, disregard the warning and order it.

Any kit I buy won't be as nice as the one my father has already purchased. Why can't ftDNA come up with business practice that accommodate families?

Probably because there is no financial incentive for FTDNA. Extra work for them and a subset of the customer base will use it. Though I guess you could just link the accounts through the Family Tree. That way matches will get the connections between them.

This is at the heart of my posting this in **feature requests**. I shouldn't have to pay a penny to get at SNPs. There should be some way to accommodate people who are already closely related.

I just thought you posted in the wrong forum section as it did not sound like you were requesting anything just information.

I'm still not sure why you want to skip STR testing and go to SNP testing but not a next gen sequence test (like Big Y or the other one). Sounds like you are going to spend money with little if any actual gain if you already know your father is positive for those SNPs.

The Nat Geno test is like a sample set of DNA tests. There is no upgrade. You will be paying again for things you already partially tested for when you order any of the more complete tests FTDNA sales. FTDNA doesn't sale the Nat Geno test (they just process them), so it isn't really their fault people are buying something that will only make them spend more for the same thing. (For example the Geno test gives you some SNP data, but if you want more you will either order an SNP Pack or Big Y. Which in turn will test those same SNPs a second time depending on which SNP test you pick.)

[dwmyers]

Just a note because it is important. There is a $39 option to turn on Family Finder for Geno 2.0 transfers. The transfer gives you this option, and it's foolish not to do it, as it's an important reason for transferring to Family Tree in the first place (to put your autosomal data in two places, the Nat Geo scientific database and the Family Tree database).

The logic is similar to what is discussed here, just that FT can't handle Ancestry autosomal transfers anymore..

http://www.legalgenealogist.com/2015/02/02/2015-most-bang-for-the-dna-buck/

Once you activate it (I just did), you have access to SNP tests. So the financial incentive I wanted (not having to pay for a STR test to get to SNP tests) now exists via a straightforward activation process.

What I'd like to see though. I'd like a drop down that allows me to designate relatives. I'd like to be able to claim kit such and such as my father, and I'd like my dad to be able to claim me as my son. I'd like someone that gets a STR match to my father to see that. I'd like someone to gets a autosomal match to me to see that my father has a kit online here.

I don't want to set up a group, I don't want to manage his account, I just want some sane way to cross connect the data.

As far as the question of why they haven't done it before, perhaps no one suggested it.

David.