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    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2014175a.html

    Abstract
    "The difficulties arising from association analysis with rare variants underline the importance of suitable reference population cohorts, which integrate detailed spatial information. We analyzed a sample of 1684 individuals from Western France, who were genotyped at genome-wide level, from two cohorts D.E.S.I.R and CavsGen. We found that fine-scale population structure occurs at the scale of Western France, with distinct admixture proportions for individuals originating from the Brittany Region and the Vendée Department. Genetic differentiation increases with distance at a high rate in these two parts of Northwestern France and linkage disequilibrium is higher in Brittany suggesting a lower effective population size. When looking for genomic regions informative about Breton origin, we found two prominent associated regions that include the lactase region and the HLA complex. For both the lactase and the HLA regions, there is a low differentiation between Bretons and Irish, and this is also found at the genome-wide level. At a more refined scale, and within the Pays de la Loire Region, we also found evidence of fine-scale population structure, although principal component analysis showed that individuals from different departments cannot be confidently discriminated. Because of the evidence for fine-scale genetic structure in Western France, we anticipate that rare and geographically localized variants will be identified in future full-sequence analyses."

  • #2
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2014175a.html

    Abstract
    "The difficulties arising from association analysis with rare variants underline the importance of suitable reference population cohorts, which integrate detailed spatial information. We analyzed a sample of 1684 individuals from Western France, who were genotyped at genome-wide level, from two cohorts D.E.S.I.R and CavsGen. We found that fine-scale population structure occurs at the scale of Western France, with distinct admixture proportions for individuals originating from the Brittany Region and the Vendée Department. Genetic differentiation increases with distance at a high rate in these two parts of Northwestern France and linkage disequilibrium is higher in Brittany suggesting a lower effective population size. When looking for genomic regions informative about Breton origin, we found two prominent associated regions that include the lactase region and the HLA complex. For both the lactase and the HLA regions, there is a low differentiation between Bretons and Irish, and this is also found at the genome-wide level. At a more refined scale, and within the Pays de la Loire Region, we also found evidence of fine-scale population structure, although principal component analysis showed that individuals from different departments cannot be confidently discriminated. Because of the evidence for fine-scale genetic structure in Western France, we anticipate that rare and geographically localized variants will be identified in future full-sequence analyses."
    The piece that I have highlighted shows the link between the Irish and Brittany. I believe that these dna links go back to the Passage tomb builders.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      The piece that I have highlighted shows the link between the Irish and Brittany. I believe that these dna links go back to the Passage tomb builders.
      You mean you WANT there to be a DNA link back to Passage tomb builders.

      Did you read the whole article?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by N21163 View Post
        You mean you WANT there to be a DNA link back to Passage tomb builders.

        Did you read the whole article?
        If you seen the size of some of the Passage tombs in Ireland you would understand. The Irish passage tombs are linked to Brittany which has the oldest in Europe 5,500 ybp. The other places in Europe where passage tombs are found are Iberia, Germany and Scandinavia.
        Irish scientists say that the people of Ireland are descended from these people. What part do you not understand?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          If you seen the size of some of the Passage tombs in Ireland you would understand. The Irish passage tombs are linked to Brittany which has the oldest in Europe 5,500 ybp. The other places in Europe where passage tombs are found are Iberia, Germany and Scandinavia.
          Irish scientists say that the people of Ireland are descended from these people. What part do you not understand?
          So that's a no, you haven't read the whole article. That's all you had to say.
          Last edited by N21163; 7 September 2014, 05:39 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by N21163 View Post
            You mean you WANT there to be a DNA link back to Passage tomb builders.
            It is not about what you or I want. It is about the facts which you and others don't accept.

            Comment


            • #7
              I only have access to the abstract rather than the full article but it looks like quite a promising study. Can anyone that has read the entire article expand upon the Irish-Breton connection?

              1798, I am curious as to what you meant when you said, "If you seen the size of some of the Passage tombs in Ireland you would understand."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by suttonwho View Post
                I only have access to the abstract rather than the full article but it looks like quite a promising study. Can anyone that has read the entire article expand upon the Irish-Breton connection?
                It does look like an interesting article, I do not currently have access to anything other than the abstract.

                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                It is not about what you or I want. It is about the facts which you and others don't accept.
                What facts? You continue to misunderstand my position and anything I write. An abstract gives a partial summary of the article, and does not reveal all of the results, discussion and conclusions.

                You cannot draw any conclusions from an abstract alone.

                As I have stated in previous posts, if there is credible evidence I quite willing to change my views. An abstract does not count as evidence. If you are able to provide a link to the rest of the article I will read it. So far you have not provided anything.

                What part of this do you not understand?

                Time and again people make simple requests of you. I ask you now, do you have access to the rest of the article?

                If not, then there is no discussion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by suttonwho View Post
                  I only have access to the abstract rather than the full article but it looks like quite a promising study. Can anyone that has read the entire article expand upon the Irish-Breton connection?

                  1798, I am curious as to what you meant when you said, "If you seen the size of some of the Passage tombs in Ireland you would understand."
                  It took a lot of people and time and effort to build the tombs and the small numbers that have been found buried in them suggests that they were only the elite. There is no evidence of a wipe out of that population and it has been said on more than one occasion that the Irish people are descended from the tomb builders.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I see what you are saying now, as I have seen you write about that before. I took you to mean something specific about the size of Irish tombs. As you and I know, they come in a wide variety of sizes. I agree there must have been a specific reason the people whose remains have been found inside the tombs were chosen. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was because they were elite. We simply don't know.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      It took a lot of people and time and effort to build the tombs and the small numbers that have been found buried in them suggests that they were only the elite. There is no evidence of a wipe out of that population and it has been said on more than one occasion that the Irish people are descended from the tomb builders.
                      I never suggested a total wipe-out of a population
                      The point out of all of this is that you have not supplied sufficient research to back up your claims.

                      Please provide a link to the full article (if you have one). If you do not have a link to the full article, then this is yet another attempt for you to try and piece together information to support your claims.

                      Given the history of Ireland, some people will have ancestors who were tomb builders and others won't. Are you trying to say that you believe all of your ancestors were tomb builders?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Isn't it usually the elite who choose themselves and line up proletarians to work and cronies to see it done?

                        Of course backing it up with suitable propaganda and a heavy dose of mumbo-jumbo.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Roy, this is where I veer off the subject of DNA and into archaeology and human behavior and say I guess it depends on your definition of elite. If it means someone special for a particular reason then I would agree. If it is simply the ruling class the I wouldn't agree at all.

                          I know the Newgrange complex well, along with lesser known sites such as Loughcrew, Tara, Four Knocks and much smaller sites now only marked with dolmens if marked at all. They are all over and to some degree at least the larger ones appear to be an aligned network, possibly for sending signals. The sites are prolific and varied which makes me think there was something much more intrinsic to the fabric of society going on than simply building a mammoth monument to celebrate a super-special ruler.

                          As far as the remains inside, who knows. That is where I come back to hard science. I believe a fundamental aspect of thinking scientifically is to realise that it is good to have theories but at the end of the day it is only reasonable to say you don't know when you don't have enough evidence. Those remains could be from the head builder, a religious entity, a sacrifice, someone wearing green that day etc etc.

                          Having been inside many tombs (including some sites in Brittany), what I do know is there is an awesome gravity and mystique to the larger ones. There is an eeriness to the smaller ones. The glyphs carved into the stonework, especially at Knowth and the face at Four Knocks have an hallucinogenic quality to them. I would love to know what motivated the builders, but can only theorize along with the rest.

                          I also wonder, if the population persisted as the majority, why did they stop building? It would be like the Romans deciding to stop building roads.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            1798, when my son returned from school yesterday I asked him where he thought the original Irish had come from based on what is currently being taught in Irish schools (he is a 3rd year in the Dublin area). He started telling me what he had been told and then obligingly whipped out his history book. I was delighted by all the underlinging and notations.

                            The crux of it is that he is not being taught anything, although they have already covered the subject. Nowhere was identified as the origin of the Irish. They merely start with the earliest known human occupation at Mount Sandel. Summarized: http://archaeology.about.com/od/meso...unt_sandel.htm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by suttonwho View Post
                              1798, when my son returned from school yesterday I asked him where he thought the original Irish had come from based on what is currently being taught in Irish schools (he is a 3rd year in the Dublin area). He started telling me what he had been told and then obligingly whipped out his history book. I was delighted by all the underlinging and notations.

                              The crux of it is that he is not being taught anything, although they have already covered the subject. Nowhere was identified as the origin of the Irish. They merely start with the earliest known human occupation at Mount Sandel. Summarized: http://archaeology.about.com/od/meso...unt_sandel.htm
                              My children are all at college here in Ireland and while their is some reference to the Celts in their history classes they are not taught that they are descended from the Celts.

                              Comment

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