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  #11  
Old 15th March 2008, 08:50 AM
Eki Eki is offline
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mtDNA-haplogroup D is also found on a low frequency throughout northeastern Europe, so maybe it got to Sicily with the Normans.
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  #12  
Old 15th March 2008, 10:52 AM
vraatyah vraatyah is offline
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Eki, the Saami D5 is a very specific haplogroup even by its HVS1 look, while the EA D4 includes many clades with no indicative mutations in the HVSes.
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  #13  
Old 22nd March 2008, 06:04 PM
mcvallone
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Hi Valery,

My name is Michael, my mother is the Sicilian "D" you are discussing. You mentioned earlier that this D probably came from Turks. Where, geographically speaking, is the match you found in your database? In all the charts I have seen, it appears in such a low frequency in Asia Minor.

Thank you for all of your help.

Michael
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  #14  
Old 24th March 2008, 12:45 AM
cacio cacio is offline
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Valery will be more precise, however, I think the paper he was referring to is the following:
Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian Corridor

http://www.ajhg.org/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(07)64352-3

though I don't think it says much about the observation, other than there are some Asian haplogroups in Turkey.

cacio
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  #15  
Old 24th March 2008, 11:23 AM
allbell allbell is offline
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Medieval Jews definitely had ties to India

Quote:
Originally Posted by vraatyah
Mike, it definitely makes sense that those Chinese matches are not exact. So, there is only a Turkish connection unless one points to Asian types with 16468 - regardless of the ultimate origin of D! Because there are no evidences of Central Asian/Far Eastern contacts in the Sicilian history
A Cairo genizah (synagogue storage closet) has some records showing that Jewish merchants in Egypt were bringing Indian brides back to Egypt as early as the 1100s.

One merchant who married an Indian woman, Abraham ben Yiju, had a daughter who went on to marry a Jewish guy in Sicily.

See http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/medieval.html

Thoughts:

- It could be that the haplogroup D testee described in the original post is actually a descendant of Abraham ben Yiju's wife, Ashu, and daughter.

- It sounds as if Abraham ben Yiju's situation was unusual, but probably not unique. It could be that several other Indian women contributed their mtDNA to the Jewish gene pool through the same route.

- If Abraham ben Yiju married a woman from India, and his daughter married a guy from Sicily, that seems to be evidence that Jewish merchants, at least, who lived around 1100 could have married women from any place in the world where ships and caravans traveled, and that those women could have ended up living thousands of miles from their birthplaces. If someone in Turkey, for example, has a type that resembles the type of the haplogroup D testee described in the original post, the Turkish individual might be descended from an Abraham ben Yiju who ended up in Turkey; from a daughter or other matrilineal descendant of the daughter who ended up in Sicily; or from another Asian woman who moved to the Middle East to marry some guy other than Abraham ben Yiju.
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  #16  
Old 27th March 2008, 03:09 PM
vraatyah vraatyah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvallone
Hi Valery,

My name is Michael, my mother is the Sicilian "D" you are discussing. You mentioned earlier that this D probably came from Turks. Where, geographically speaking, is the match you found in your database? In all the charts I have seen, it appears in such a low frequency in Asia Minor.

Thank you for all of your help.

Michael

Hello Michael,

it seems that Cacio already answered the question. I think, the knowledge of the Turkish mtdna is still poor and it's not possible to subdivide the Turkish population into portions which can differ in the amount of Central Asian influence. Feasible solutions:

1) earliest admixture that predates Turks
2) Karahanids era
3) Osmans
4) Recent slave trade
5) local admixture in the Anatolian Turkmen tribes

BTW, Albell just mentioned very intersting scenario which is not related to slavery directly though it's somewhat similar to the slave trade.


Regards
valery
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