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  #11  
Old 10th August 2015, 05:32 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by geltcheltnghelt2 View Post
A brief history.

Information Source: Eupedia.com

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/brit...land_dna.shtml

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Another Information Source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

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A latter Celtic migration took place around 500 BCE, when Central European Celts from the Hallstatt culture expanded over a large swathe of western Europe. Travelling with their families on wagons transporting their belongings, the Celts colonised most of France, Belgium and the south-east of England. Soon afterwards the classical Iron Age Celtic La Tène culture flourished around the Alps and quickly overran Gaul, northern Italy and a big part of central Europe. In the first century BCE, several La Tène tribes like the the Belgic Atrebates and the Gaulish Parisii crossed over the Channel and settled in southern England and Yorkshire. The cultural influence of La Tène spread to the whole of Ireland in the 1st century BCE. It is possible that the Picts, whose art was characteristic of the La Tène style, descended from undocumented La Tène Celts, or perhaps from an offshoot of the Parisii from Yorkshire displaced northward by the Romans.
No ancient DNA from the Hallstatt and La Tène culture has been tested to date, but it is very likely that these Celts carried a large percentage of R1b-U152 (mostly the L2 subclade), and probably low percentages of G2a3b1, I2a2b (L38) and J2b2 lineages, among others. R1b-U152 is found at low frequency almost everywhere in the British Isles, but is considerably more common in eastern and southern England (5-10%), reaching a peak of nearly 15% in East Anglia and in Kent.
The Celts colonised most of France, Belgium and the south-east of England. Soon afterwards the classical Iron Age Celtic La Tène culture flourished around the Alps and quickly overran Gaul, northern Italy and a big part of central Europe. In the first century BCE, several La Tène tribes like the the Belgic Atrebates and the Gaulish Parisii crossed over the Channel and settled in southern England and Yorkshire. The cultural influence of La Tène spread to the whole of Ireland in the 1st century BCE. It is possible that the Picts, whose art was characteristic of the La Tène style, descended from undocumented La Tène Celts, or perhaps from an offshoot of the Parisii from Yorkshire displaced northward by the Romans.

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From 410 to the middle of the 6th century, the Jutes, the Angles and the Saxons, Germanic tribes from Denmark and north-west Germany, left their homeland and migrated to what would become England. The Jutes settled in Kent and Hampshire, the Saxons in the rest of southern England as far north as the Worcestershire, while the Angles occupied the rest of England from East Anglia to Northumberland and southeastern Scotland.

A few centuries later, from around 800, Danish Vikings started raiding the coastlines of the British Isles. A large number of them settled in northern and eastern England in what would become known as the Danelaw, an area stretching from Yorkshire and Lancashire to East Anglia and the East Midlands. Since the Danelaw was essentially the land of the Angles, who were also from Denmark, it is not surprising that this region also has the highest incidence of blond hair in the British Isles today.

A lot has been written about the Anglo-Saxon conquest and historians have long debated the real genetic impact that the Anglo-Saxon had on the British population. Were the Romans and ancient Britons completely wiped out by the invaders or forced to retreat by to Wales, Cornwall and Scotland ? Did the most of the native population intermingle with Anglo-Saxons creating a new hybrid ethnic group ? What happened actually lies in between.

Germanic people brought a whole new set of paternal lineages with them, namely I1, I2a2a, R1a (L664 and Z284), R1b-U106, and to a lower extent Q1a. Those haplogroups now make up over half of all male lineages in England and Lowland Scotland.

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Proto-Germanic (the immediate ancestor to the Germanic language family) did not develop until about 500 BC.

The U106 family originated in western Europe between 3,500-4000 BC at least 3000 years before the birth of the German language. The U106 family spoke all the languages that have been spoken in western Europe in those 5-6000 years.
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  #12  
Old 10th August 2015, 07:36 AM
geltcheltnghelt2 geltcheltnghelt2 is offline
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Thumbs up There are correlations between haplogroups. We have found the correlation between I2

1- Patrilineality * I2 (M438/P215/S31)*I2a (L460)/I2a2 (284)/Ia22b (L38/S154)*(L533) (Bronze Age Urnfield Culture, La Téne Culture and Alpine Celtic)
2- Matrilineality * I2 (M438/P215/S31)*I2a (L460)/I2a2 (284)/I2a2a (M223/ M284) - L1195 / L126*L1193 (British Isles)
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1-- I2 (M438/P215/S31)*I2a (L460)/I2a2 (284)/Ia22b (L38/S154)*(L533) (Bronze Age Urnfield Culture, La Téne Culture and Alpine Celtic)

I2a2b (formerly I2b2) has a distribution mostly limited to Alpine Italy (esp. Piedmont), Switzerland, the German Rhineland, the Harz mountains, the Low Countries, eastern France, and the British Isles (with the exception of Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria and the Scottish Highlands).
Four out of the six samples from the 3000-year old Lichtenstein Cave in central Germany belonged to L38+. The cave was part of the Bronze Age Urnfield Culture. Based on the STR dating, it is believed that this lineage spread from Germany to England via Belgium in the Late Iron Age with the Celtic people of the La Tène Culture. I2a2b is therefore essentially a Alpine Celtic haplogroup.
The distribution of I2-L38 matches fairly well that of haplogroup R1b-U152 north of the Alps. Both haplogroups are also found at low frequency in Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and central Turkey, probably reflecting the migration of La Tène Celts in the third century BCE (see map). R1b-U152 is associated with both the Central European Celts (Unetice, Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tène) and the Italic people. I2-L38 being limited to the Alpine region in Italy, mostly the north-west where Gaulish tribes settled, it is likely that I2-L38 was brought to Italy by Celtic migrations many centuries after the arrival of Italic tribes from the Alpine Danube region. I2-L38 people would therefore have been autochthonous to the region between the Alps, Central Germany and the Low Countries and were assimilated into the Celtic society dimilated into the Celtic society during the Hallstatt or La Tène period.

2-- I2 (M438/P215/S31)*I2a (L460)/I2a2 (284)/I2a2a (M223/ M284) - L1195 / L126*L1193 (British Isles)

I2a2b (formerly I2b2) has a distribution mostly limited to Alpine Italy (esp. Piedmont), Switzerland, the German Rhineland, the Harz mountains, the Low Countries, eastern France, and the British Isles (with the exception of Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria and the Scottish Highlands).
Four out of the six samples from the 3000-year old Lichtenstein Cave in central Germany belonged to L38+. The cave was part of the Bronze Age Urnfield Culture. Based on the STR dating, it is believed that this lineage spread from Germany to England via Belgium in the Late Iron Age with the Celtic people of the La Tène Culture. I2a2b is therefore essentially a Alpine Celtic haplogroup.
The distribution of I2-L38 matches fairly well that of haplogroup R1b-U152 north of the Alps. Both haplogroups are also found at low frequency in Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and central Turkey, probably reflecting the migration of La Tène Celts in the third century BCE (see map). R1b-U152 is associated with both the Central European Celts (Unetice, Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tène) and the Italic people. I2-L38 being limited to the Alpine region in Italy, mostly the north-west where Gaulish tribes settled, it is likely that I2-L38 was brought to Italy by Celtic migrations many centuries after the arrival of Italic tribes from the Alpine Danube region. I2-L38 people would therefore have been autochthonous to the region between the Alps, Central Germany and the Low Countries and were assimilated into the Celtic society during the Hallstatt or La Tène period.

Proto-Celts (Most probably the R1b-L21 branch) and to Scandinavia with the Proto-Germanics chiefly R1b-S21).
R1b-L21 (Like in Ireland, Scotland and Brittany) on the one hand, but also with all regions settled by Germanic people).
Pre-Celto-Germanic- R1b-U152 (It's associated with both the Central European Celts [Unetice, Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tène] and the Italic people being limited to the Alpine region in Italy, mostly the north-west where Gaulish tribes settled, it is likely was brought to Italy by Celtic migrations many centuries after the arrival of Italic tribes from the Alpine Danube region).
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  #13  
Old 10th August 2015, 11:25 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Smile

"Based on the STR dating"

Using STRs for dating is a thing of the past and very inaccurate. SNPs are the way to go.
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  #14  
Old 10th August 2015, 06:33 PM
geltcheltnghelt2 geltcheltnghelt2 is offline
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Thank you for your contribution. Everyone knows what is best in your job / work.
If it's that you say, as my friend, strong rope pulls forward. For me it is the STR is very reliable. I grew up in the old way, therefore, I see more of what you say, the SNP.
Welcome aboard. A cordial greeting /salutattion to you, estimaded friend and colleague, I look that you are the cradle of Celtic civilization, Hibernia, Ireland...known Iberni.

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"Based on the STR dating"

Using STRs for dating is a thing of the past and very inaccurate. SNPs are the way to go.
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Old 10th August 2015, 07:35 PM
geltcheltnghelt2 geltcheltnghelt2 is offline
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Thank you for the explanation.

Thanks 1758, these data and information are great, it's always good to know something new, a lot of thanks for this contribution.

Best regards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
Proto-Germanic (the immediate ancestor to the Germanic language family) did not develop until about 500 BC.

The U106 family originated in western Europe between 3,500-4000 BC at least 3000 years before the birth of the German language. The U106 family spoke all the languages that have been spoken in western Europe in those 5-6000 years.
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  #16  
Old 12th August 2015, 01:04 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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I find YSTRs useful for finding some SNP branches but not for dating them. The vast majority of testers who are closest to me in haplotype give their origin in the Isles. That is why I believe that L11 originated in western Europe as they all belong to this group. Their autosomal results also show the same.
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  #17  
Old 12th August 2015, 07:13 AM
geltcheltnghelt2 geltcheltnghelt2 is offline
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Thumbs up Once again

Once again, thank you...1798. Your answer is very useful. You can count on me for anything you need.
Best wishes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
I find YSTRs useful for finding some SNP branches but not for dating them. The vast majority of testers who are closest to me in haplotype give their origin in the Isles. That is why I believe that L11 originated in western Europe as they all belong to this group. Their autosomal results also show the same.
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  #18  
Old 13th August 2015, 06:42 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Once again, thank you...1798. Your answer is very useful. You can count on me for anything you need.
Best wishes.
Thanks for your support.
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  #19  
Old 20th August 2015, 09:01 PM
kevinduffy kevinduffy is offline
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Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
"Based on the STR dating"

Using STRs for dating is a thing of the past and very inaccurate. SNPs are the way to go.
Wouldn't the wisest course of action be to use both STRs and SNPs rather than claiming one to be superior to the other?

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  #20  
Old 20th August 2015, 09:05 PM
kevinduffy kevinduffy is offline
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Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
Proto-Germanic (the immediate ancestor to the Germanic language family) did not develop until about 500 BC.

The U106 family originated in western Europe between 3,500-4000 BC at least 3000 years before the birth of the German language. The U106 family spoke all the languages that have been spoken in western Europe in those 5-6000 years.
Maybe, but today U106 seems to be most common in people of Germanic ancestry. It would seem that non-Germanic U106 either died out or is very rare.
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