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Old 28th March 2015, 02:04 AM
Anizio Anizio is offline
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Help. Asia Minor DNA in Italians

Hello, I recently got my Family Finder kit results, and they show:

64% Southern European
12% Central Western European
24% Asia Minor

I have done extensive genealogy, with every branch at least traced to the 1700s. The match results showed all Italians, and some Germans as 4th and 5th cousins, all in the areas of the world it should have to confirm all of my genealogy.

However the Asia Minor DNA, and lack of any related results, is confusing.

I have found this is not an isolated incident.

Keep in mind, my family is NOT southern Italian so that cannot be simply stated as the explanation. It is not.

My family is central Italian: Lazio, Abruzzo, and Marche with 54% from Marche.

Another Italian I know, has similar results: 59% Southern European and 28% Asia Minor with no explanation in his history. His family is also central Italian.

I have browsed the internet and found other people experiencing similar results from this site, where Italians show Asia Minor DNA approximately 50% of the amount it gives for Southern European. Many of those same people seem to do tests with other companies where the results come back more likes 90% Southern European and 2% Asia Minor.


So my question is this....why? Why does FamilyTreeDNA seem to give Italians such high levels of Asia Minor DNA?
Is it a) a flaw in the tests and analysis done by FamilyTreeDNA, or
b) some distinction between normal Italian DNA and something else which is picked up on, like how some tests locate Neanderthal DNA, yet it is merely misclassified as "Asia Minor"? or
c) something else.

What is not an explanation:
- It cannot be simply "Southern Italians have Eastern influences." That would only be true of the very south, and even then it shouldn't be so high.
- It cannot be "you have an Asia Minor ancestor" because I have 4th-5th cousin matches with the right names and locations to match my grandparents parts of Italy, confirming that I am full Italian well into the early 1800s.

My theory: aboriginals

I suspect, and I'd like to hear some opinions on this, that what FamilyTreeDNA is finding is traces of pre-Indo European Italian peoples.

I do extensive research on pre-Roman Italy, its cultures, peoples, ethnicities, etc. And before the Latins, Sabines, Umbrians, etc. came to Italy, there were other peoples and history records them well. The Oenotri, the north Piceni, the Rutuli, the Sicani, and more. Sometimes they are unnamed and just called "Pelasgian."

These "Pelasgian" people were present from Anatolia, through Greece, and into Italy well before Turks, Greeks, or Italians ever arrived into the area ~3-4,000 years ago.

It is recorded in history that these people originated in Greece, but it may be they came from Asia Minor. Especially when you throw in the fact that recent genetic assessment of the "waves" of migrations into Europe shows a wave of farmers from Asia Minor coming in ~7,000 years ago and earlier.

These people would have been present in Italy from Luca and Rimini south. As Italians arrived in Italy, they were either assimilated, or pushed further south. Which would mean the highest concentrations of this DNA would be in Sicily and the southern parts of Italy like Basilicata and Calabria (ie. the Oenotri and Siculi aboriginals were very populous in the south by the time they were fully absorbed into Italic groups). Which, according to other MyOrigins results of Italians I know, shows that to be the case.

So could it be that this 20-30% Asia Minor DNA (40%-50% in the south) is actually revealing "deep ancestry" and the mixture of the pre-Indo European Italian DNA with the Italic DNA of the Indo-European migrants?

I know, long post. Any thoughts/opinions? Similar/different results? Other explanations?
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  #2  
Old 28th March 2015, 03:25 AM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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I'm pretty sure Abruzzo is considered Southern Italy. My mom's side is from Pratola peligna Abruzzo, Cosenza Calabria. My dad side is from Napoli. My origins shows 9% Asia Minor. This isn't suprising at all. Considering that many people on Turkish origin came to Italy and settled there. Not sure why it suprises you.
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Old 28th March 2015, 03:32 AM
Anizio Anizio is offline
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Abruzzo is "South" Italy by geography, but ethnically the Eastern influences in the South would not be that high up.

Also there was not huge Turkish or Eastern settlement.

My Abruzzo family represents 12% of my family history. 24% of my DNA coming from Asia Minor does not automatically mean Turk, not could it be explained by Abruzzo. In your case it maybe can because you are completely from the South and your results are small. My family is mostly Lazio and Marche, and my ancestry back to 1800s shows no Turks (my Family Finder Matches support this). People in Le Marche should not have high Asia Minor DNA.

The fact that you dismiss it as just being from the South is a point I tried to stress. This Asia Minor DNA is showing up all over Italy, not just in small amounts in the South. I am suggesting an explanation for the Asia Minor DNA presence throughout Italy, which the "South Italy had Eastern migrants" theory cannot properly explain.

Further you ignore the fact that many people who share this result with me, do not have the same Asia Minor results from other companies which means there is something distinct about the FamilyTreeDNA test.

Also, I have been told that the reason that many British people's FamilyTreeDNA test results show mostly German when it shouldn't is because of ancestors from 5-10,000 years ago. if that shows up in British tests, why wouldn't that sort of deep ancestry show up in Italians?

Last edited by Anizio; 28th March 2015 at 03:37 AM. Reason: spelling errors
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Old 28th March 2015, 03:36 AM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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Italy has had tons of influx throughout history from the middle east and from Anatolia. You have to remember how long Rome ruled the planet. Autosomal admixture can range in years, up to 2000 years back. Autosomal admixture does NOT go back farther.

Also, their hasn't been a lot of Italians who have tested.
Btw are you on gedmatch? We could be related.

Last edited by Taz85; 28th March 2015 at 03:40 AM.
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  #5  
Old 28th March 2015, 03:41 AM
Anizio Anizio is offline
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[QUOTE=Taz85;405984]Italy has has tons of influx throughout history from the middle east and from Anatolia.[QUOTE]

For 24% of my DNA to show up as Asia Minor, that would be a pretty damn high amount of Anatolian ancestors. Too high. I know some Southern Italians with 40-50%.

Sorry but that explains nothing, its a theory without evidentiary support.

I do have Abruzzo ancestors from the Paeligni territory in the 1600s. From Sulmona, Pescocostanzo, and Rivisondoli. We could be related but I am not on Gedmatch
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Old 28th March 2015, 03:47 AM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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[QUOTE=Anizio;405985][QUOTE=Taz85;405984]Italy has has tons of influx throughout history from the middle east and from Anatolia.
Quote:

For 24% of my DNA to show up as Asia Minor, that would be a pretty damn high amount of Anatolian ancestors. Too high. I know some Southern Italians with 40-50%.

Sorry but that explains nothing, its a theory without evidentiary support.

I do have Abruzzo ancestors from the Paeligni territory in the 1600s. From Sulmona, Pescocostanzo, and Rivisondoli. We could be related but I am not on Gedmatch

Without any evidence to support? Seriously? Rome took slaves from all over the mid east, and they we're assimilated. Remember Autosomal DNA for admixture does not go that far back. Maybe 2000 years. It's very possible for someone whose 100% Italian to have such admixture. Heck if I was to test my mom, she'd probably come back at least 50% middle eastern, because of the simple fact of the influx of the Levant in Italy during Roman times.

Hate to break it to you, but autosomal admixture can show up way beyond 1600, 1700

I don't understand why you think your research that has brought you back to the 1700s disproves your Asia Minor admixture, when autosomal admixture might go back to the 1st century.

Last edited by Taz85; 28th March 2015 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 28th March 2015, 03:52 AM
Anizio Anizio is offline
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You overstate the influx of non-Romans into Italy. There has been no research to support that. And a lot of the slaves in Italy were Italians.

If it were that, it would not be all Italians I know being tested (about 10 now) who have ONLY Asia Minor DNA. Not Levant. Not Arabia. not Africa. JUST Asia Minor in these high amounts. When all Italians seem to be having this problem with only Asia Minor as the result, your explanation does not fit.

And people in the South should be having Arab DNA showing up, not Asia Minor, if invaders were the explanation.

Last edited by Anizio; 28th March 2015 at 03:54 AM. Reason: spelling.
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Old 28th March 2015, 03:55 AM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anizio View Post
You overstate the influx of non-Romans into Italy. There has been no research to support that.

If it were that, it would not be all Italians I know being tested (about 10 now) who have ONLY Asia Minor DNA. Not Levant. Not Arabia. not Africa. JUST Asia Minor in these high amounts. When all Italians seem to be having this problem with only Asia Minor as the result, your explanation does not fit.
Again, your research has brought you back to the 1700s. Autosomal DNA admixture can go as far back as the first century. So your research going back to the 1700s is not going to be able to disprove your Asia Minor admixture.

Your saying the 10 Italians you speak of represent "all" Italians in this database?
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  #9  
Old 28th March 2015, 07:25 AM
Armando Armando is offline
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Anizio,

23andme does a better job for Italians, Greeks, and Iberians than myOrigins. At 23andme I can normally tell where a person is from based on the their results. That can't be done as easily with myOrigins which also gives Greeks an elevated amount of Asia Minor.

There is a great thread on 23andme results of Italians and Greeks at http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...3andme-results!

That isn't to say you shouldn't be pointing out problems with myOrigins. You definitely should and I am pleased that you have done so.

If you do get a test or have already had a test with 23andme seeing those results would be helpful.
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  #10  
Old 28th March 2015, 10:15 AM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anizio View Post
Hello, I recently got my Family Finder kit results, and they show:

64% Southern European
12% Central Western European
24% Asia Minor

I have done extensive genealogy, with every branch at least traced to the 1700s. The match results showed all Italians, and some Germans as 4th and 5th cousins, all in the areas of the world it should have to confirm all of my genealogy.

However the Asia Minor DNA, and lack of any related results, is confusing.

I have found this is not an isolated incident.

Keep in mind, my family is NOT southern Italian so that cannot be simply stated as the explanation. It is not.

My family is central Italian: Lazio, Abruzzo, and Marche with 54% from Marche.

Another Italian I know, has similar results: 59% Southern European and 28% Asia Minor with no explanation in his history. His family is also central Italian.

I have browsed the internet and found other people experiencing similar results from this site, where Italians show Asia Minor DNA approximately 50% of the amount it gives for Southern European. Many of those same people seem to do tests with other companies where the results come back more likes 90% Southern European and 2% Asia Minor.


So my question is this....why? Why does FamilyTreeDNA seem to give Italians such high levels of Asia Minor DNA?
Is it a) a flaw in the tests and analysis done by FamilyTreeDNA, or
b) some distinction between normal Italian DNA and something else which is picked up on, like how some tests locate Neanderthal DNA, yet it is merely misclassified as "Asia Minor"? or
c) something else.

What is not an explanation:
- It cannot be simply "Southern Italians have Eastern influences." That would only be true of the very south, and even then it shouldn't be so high.
- It cannot be "you have an Asia Minor ancestor" because I have 4th-5th cousin matches with the right names and locations to match my grandparents parts of Italy, confirming that I am full Italian well into the early 1800s.

My theory: aboriginals

I suspect, and I'd like to hear some opinions on this, that what FamilyTreeDNA is finding is traces of pre-Indo European Italian peoples.

I do extensive research on pre-Roman Italy, its cultures, peoples, ethnicities, etc. And before the Latins, Sabines, Umbrians, etc. came to Italy, there were other peoples and history records them well. The Oenotri, the north Piceni, the Rutuli, the Sicani, and more. Sometimes they are unnamed and just called "Pelasgian."

These "Pelasgian" people were present from Anatolia, through Greece, and into Italy well before Turks, Greeks, or Italians ever arrived into the area ~3-4,000 years ago.

It is recorded in history that these people originated in Greece, but it may be they came from Asia Minor. Especially when you throw in the fact that recent genetic assessment of the "waves" of migrations into Europe shows a wave of farmers from Asia Minor coming in ~7,000 years ago and earlier.

These people would have been present in Italy from Luca and Rimini south. As Italians arrived in Italy, they were either assimilated, or pushed further south. Which would mean the highest concentrations of this DNA would be in Sicily and the southern parts of Italy like Basilicata and Calabria (ie. the Oenotri and Siculi aboriginals were very populous in the south by the time they were fully absorbed into Italic groups). Which, according to other MyOrigins results of Italians I know, shows that to be the case.

So could it be that this 20-30% Asia Minor DNA (40%-50% in the south) is actually revealing "deep ancestry" and the mixture of the pre-Indo European Italian DNA with the Italic DNA of the Indo-European migrants?

I know, long post. Any thoughts/opinions? Similar/different results? Other explanations?
The Etruscans were from Asia Minor. An Mtdna study by Achilli (2007) revealed clear Asia Minor presence in Tuscany. The rates of the Asia Minor-north Middle East Y dna J2 line are higher in central Italy than in southern Italy.

Last edited by josh w.; 28th March 2015 at 10:24 AM.
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