What is the point of surname projects?

[rootsreality]

It seems to me that there is marginal value in segregating Y-DNA results into various 'surname projects'. The surname projects are meaningful only if the participants ancestors followed the convention of always naming children by giving them the birth fathers name. Always! 100%!

In the real world there is no guarantee that this has happened. There are unknown fathers, kids using their stepfather's surname, adoptions, differing cultural naming conventions, names changed purposely to create new identities, etc. The concept of "most distant ancestor" is also based on paper trails and family pass down, not bio-genetics, so its validity as related to DNA is questionable.

What would happen if all the Y results would be put into one big pot with the results grouped by bio-genetic matches regardless of the surname? This would provide true bio-genetic matches. Provide the current surnames of dna test contributors to provide a point of leverage. There will probably be a majority surname, and exceptions would stand out.

The piece I see to be problematic now is that your current surname may be Jones and you join the Jones surname project, but you don't know that 6 or 8 generations back there was a single mother whose son took on her surname, not the surname of the father. You think you are a Jones, but your archaic Y-chromosome really matches more Smiths than Joneses. You would never know about that connection because you joined the Jones project not the Smith project. You would match to descendants of single-mother- Jones but also match to a bunch more Smiths that preceeded her naming deviation. But how would you ever know?

Another example: What if your last name is Young but you don't know that in the 1700s before your immigrant ancestor reached the USA he was Mr. Jung, not Mr. Young. Descendants of the Jungs who remained in the old country may not know to associate their archaic Y-chromosome to the YOUNG surname project. Or should the Youngs really be associated to a Jung project?

No one really has a right to declare which surname prevails. Participants should be able to see that they match regardless of surname, most distant ancestor, etc. The associations should be based purely on science, with the cultural stuff available as added info only.

I am new to all this so perhaps I have missed some important concept, but the surname projects just aren't making sense to me.

[MikeP]

Matches, whether FF, Y, or Mt, are made based on genetic similarity. Surname projects, in general, are not limited to people who have that surname. So in your first example, Jones will discover that he matches a lot of Smiths but not Jones. He should then be accepted into the Smith surname project based on the genetic connection. Young will discover that he matches some Jung's from the old country. The change in name will not hinder that and will instead provide information that there was a spelling change at some point.

[MMaddi]

You can't put aside the historical/cultural fact that, in western civilization (and probably others that I'm not familiar enough with), there is a strong connection between the biological father of a son and the son's surname. The surname is passed down the paternal line along with the y chromosome. This is true for several hundred years in western Europe. Of course, there are cases where the son is not the biological child of the father whose surname he carries, for the various reasons you cited. But the research into this situation indicates that this affects at most about 5% of men.

So, just based on that alone, there is a certain usefulness to surname projects. Those who hope to get beyond paper trail brick walls in the paternal line can (and have) successfully used yDNA testing to break down the brick wall and connect with the correct line for their surname - for instance, whether their Jones paternal line is descended from William Jones, who was born in 1702 in Virginia or Steven Jones, who was born in 1705 in Pennsylvania. And, in some cases, they will discover through yDNA testing that their surname is not the surname of their biological father and the man whom the son regarded as his father is not his biological father. As MikeP posted, in those cases the person should join the surname project in which he actually has close matches to his yDNA.

Basically, I'm saying "don't throw the baby out with the bath water." Just because in a small percentage of cases the surname of the man is not the true surname of his paternal line, it doesn't mean that surname projects are useless. Remember that surname projects are a form of organizing DNA results in genetic genealogy. It's not a pure genetic exercise. Surname projects, with good administrators, can help men solve genealogical questions and, for that reason alone, are worthwhile.

[rootsreality]

Matches, whether FF, Y, or Mt, are made based on genetic similarity. Surname projects, in general, are not limited to people who have that surname. So in your first example, Jones will discover that he matches a lot of Smiths but not Jones. He should then be accepted into the Smith surname project based on the genetic connection. Young will discover that he matches some Jung's from the old country. The change in name will not hinder that and will instead provide information that there was a spelling change at some point.

Not true.....
Many Y participants subscribe to the project first and buy the test through the project so their results post to the project regardless of surname

[Auslander]

Not true.....
Many Y participants subscribe to the project first and buy the test through the project so their results post to the project regardless of surname

But that is not where it ends. I did exactly that, joined my surname project and bought the kit. When my Y results came back with 0 distance at 67 markers to another surname, along with 9 others to that same surname at 2 to 3 markers, I dropped out of the original surname project and joined the one with my actual surname project where my markers group me in with others of the same common ancestral group. I was able to identify a 6th cousin and through him discover where the NPE occurred. Had it not been for the surname projects I would still be oblivious of who I really am.

[Jim Barrett]

What would happen if all the Y results would be put into one big pot with the results grouped by bio-genetic matches regardless of the surname? This would provide true bio-genetic matches. Provide the current surnames of dna test contributors to provide a point of leverage. There will probably be a majority surname, and exceptions would stand out.

You would have one project that would be so big no one could tell anything about it.

[angelah100]

But that is not where it ends. I did exactly that, joined my surname project and bought the kit. When my Y results came back with 0 distance at 67 markers to another surname, along with 9 others to that same surname at 2 to 3 markers, I dropped out of the original surname project and joined the one with my actual surname project where my markers group me in with others of the same common ancestral group. I was able to identify a 6th cousin and through him discover where the NPE occurred. Had it not been for the surname projects I would still be oblivious of who I really am.

How did you identify the proper surname project once you realized you must've had an NPE in your tree?

[MoberlyDrake]

When I purchased a Y-DNA test for my cousin I joined the Mobley project. When his results came in he didn't match any Mobley at all, but Hamptons and Hollingsworths in about equal numbers. So I joined both the Hampton and the Hollingsworth projects and the administrator of the Hollingsworth project explained to me that all the Hollingsworths who matched my cousin were descended from one man, who was obviously the result of an NPE back in Virginia in the 1700s, that is, he had the Hollingsworth surname but a Hampton father. So, I didn't know if I was going to have one NPE (Hampton to Mobley) or two (Hampton to Hollingsworth to Mobley) to deal with.

Autosomal tests eventually narrowed it down to one of two Hampton brothers. I informed the administrator of the Hollingsworth project of my findings and said I would leave the project, but he wanted me to stay in. I don't know why, but while there's no benefit to me, there's no harm either!

[John McCoy]

Another important result from joining a surname project is that you can often get a sense of how many genetically distinct families of your surname there are, and whether you might be connected with any of them. For my McCoy family, for example, it quickly became apparent that there must be at least a dozen distinct families using this name, and that I'm not connected with any of them. There may be even more distinct families in the project by now, I haven't checked lately. This information, at least, tells me I can pretty much ignore the other McCoy families (and related spellings) that have been tested, they aren't mine!

At the same time, I turn out to be somewhat close to a group of McMillans, though probably not close enough to help get me through my brick wall circa 1790 in Maryland. Big Y helped clarify that situation: I turn out to be off by myself on a little twig (thought to be centuries old) next to a bigger branch containing mostly McMillans.

If your Y DNA happens to be a good match for a particular group having your surname, that's great, and it clearly does happen for a lot of people. If not, you still learn something that may help you redirect your genealogical research.

[The_Contemplator]

What would happen if all the Y results would be put into one big pot with the results grouped by bio-genetic matches regardless of the surname? This would provide true bio-genetic matches.

Both options (surname and bio-genetic) are available to you. Once you get your Y-DNA STR results, you will have a predicted haplogroup assignment. Then you can join the haplogroup project and be grouped with other people with the same bio-genetics regardless of surnames. The Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup projects are not shown in the list of projects until you are logged into a kit which usually happens after you order a test. They vary in size but some have a few thousand kits. The R1b project has over 10,000.

No one really has a right to declare which surname prevails. Participants should be able to see that they match regardless of surname, most distant ancestor, etc. The associations should be based purely on science, with the cultural stuff available as added info only.

The Y-DNA test results you get already give you a list of matches regardless of surnames or of what projects you have joined. I administer a kit of a relative, and none of his Y-DNA matches have his surname. You can also join geographical projects.

I informed the administrator of the Hollingsworth project of my findings and said I would leave the project, but he wanted me to stay in. I don't know why, but while there's no benefit to me, there's no harm either!

My guess is that your cousin's kit would be helpful in case a future Mobley with a similar NPE showed up.

[MoberlyDrake]

My guess is that your cousin's kit would be helpful in case a future Mobley with a similar NPE showed up.

Not very likely. My first cousins and the son of one of them, who so far, has 2 daughters, are the only descendants of the NPE. 4 males in all and one has already tested. I have wondered if my great-grandfather's next oldest brother was also the neighbor's son, based only on similarity of their appearance and how different they look from the other siblings I've seen photos of. But even if he was, he had only two daughters, so no Y-DNA to pass on.

[The_Contemplator]

Hmm well, maybe that admin wants the kit in the project to add it to the collection of Mobley kits even if it will remain unique. I imagine some admins want to grow their project counts for completeness sake or to encourage future growth.

[brownbagg]

How did you identify the proper surname project once you realized you must've had an NPE in your tree?

I am a NPE on a surname project, what got me was, I was two markers out of a 111 of 300 people with kinda the same surname, but nowhere near what I have.

and then I got somebody that related to my tree, that I have known about for years, but they are related around 1850 to do a y test, and my numbers are no where close, 34 out of 67 marker. So i am a NPE but dont no where or when

[Auslander]

How did you identify the proper surname project once you realized you must've had an NPE in your tree?

I'm a little late in answering the OP's question of my reply but the way I knew my actual surname was when the top ten 67 matches all had the same surname and all of the 111 matches also had that same surname. Corresponding with my best match, finding out he was born and raised in the same place I was, and thoroughly searching the records for the new surname, I was able to discover exactly where the NPE took place. That coupled with additional atDNA matches confirmed the new surname. It takes an enormous amount of time, effort and perseverance, but discovering your actual surname is doable, or at least was for me.

[stennor]

no worries

I've only skimmed this thread so may have missed something, but I believe that every Y-DNA test is matched against every other Y-DNA test in the FTFNA database, regardless of what surname project one does or does not join. Joining a project simply provides an opportunity to see how one fits into that particular group. But joining doesn't shut you out from matching throughout the database.