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  #1  
Old 4th May 2014, 04:55 PM
vinnie vinnie is offline
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Comparing Jewish and Southern Italian results

Has anyone of either group been able to compare with someone of the other? I'm wondering what the percentages generally look like for each group.

My Sicilian mother is: N. Med 47%, Anatolia 41%, N. Africa 5%, and Jewish 6% (1% missing).

My Abruzzese father was: N.Med 35%, Euro-Coastal 20%, Anatolia 43%, and N. Africa 2%.

Given that my mother's FF results do not indicate recent Jewish admixture, I'm wondering what time frame these results indicate.
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  #2  
Old 4th May 2014, 05:08 PM
JuanCarlos JuanCarlos is offline
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I've read in their explanation that some people may show Jewish, without actually having a common ancestry with Jewish people. I don't know if this would apply to your mother, but since there is no record or stories of having Jewish ancestry, this might be one of those cases.
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Old 4th May 2014, 05:18 PM
vinnie vinnie is offline
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Originally Posted by JuanCarlos View Post
I've read in their explanation that some people may show Jewish, without actually having a common ancestry with Jewish people. I don't know if this would apply to your mother, but since there is no record or stories of having Jewish ancestry, this might be one of those cases.
I think 6% is a bit too much for statistical "noise", and almost all of the Gedmatch calculators turn up heavily Jewish, including Sephardic and North African Jewish. So I think it's really there, but just not linked to E. European Ashkenazi in the last 500 years.

My father's y line is most likely ancient Jewish, we have a family history of having been "associated with the Jewish faith centuries ago" per a cousin, we wash our meat with salt, and there were people in my grandfather's town who maintained a Jewish identity; yet, he gets no "Jewish Diaspora".
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Old 4th May 2014, 06:02 PM
JuanCarlos JuanCarlos is offline
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Originally Posted by vinnie View Post
I think 6% is a bit too much for statistical "noise", and almost all of the Gedmatch calculators turn up heavily Jewish, including Sephardic and North African Jewish. So I think it's really there, but just not linked to E. European Ashkenazi in the last 500 years.

My father's y line is most likely ancient Jewish, we have a family history of having been "associated with the Jewish faith centuries ago" per a cousin, we wash our meat with salt, and there were people in my grandfather's town who maintained a Jewish identity; yet, he gets no "Jewish Diaspora".
It seems that "Jewish Diaspora" is centered on AJ. So I wonder what other Jewish groups would show. If you know you have some Jewish ancestors, maybe that is the reason it does not show in your father's report. The thing is why does your mom show it then? I think these questions should be answered by the creators of MyOrigins. I've read they are having a Webinar tomorrow. Not sure if I spelled it right.
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Old 4th May 2014, 08:25 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by JuanCarlos View Post
It seems that "Jewish Diaspora" is centered on AJ. So I wonder what other Jewish groups would show. If you know you have some Jewish ancestors, maybe that is the reason it does not show in your father's report. The thing is why does your mom show it then? I think these questions should be answered by the creators of MyOrigins. I've read they are having a Webinar tomorrow. Not sure if I spelled it right.
Yes, this is quite confusing and I hope it clears up next week (I am a co-administrator on a couple of projects but I will wait until then for my results).

I don't know what is meant by the phrase 'Jewish signature'. When Zalloua used the phrase 'Phoenician signature', it meant that one had Phoenician ancestors--it reflected specific STR patterns.

As I mentioned on another thread, it may be the case that full Ashkenazis (both parental lines) might only show a Diaspora Jewish component, but Sephardim and Mizrachis may have a Diaspora component combined with a host region component. Although unintended, this creates the impression that only Ashkenazis are 'pure' Diaspora Jews. This is absurd, given research on Ashkenazi Mtdna and evidence of conversions to Judaism in Roman times.

Vinnie, my guess is that your mother has the 'Jewish signature'. I am not at all sure but I think that this means that your mother's line converted to Christianity during Roman times. Conversely, the absence of the Diaspora component probably indicates a lack of Jewish ancestry (excluding unique conversions such as the Khazars and one Berber tribe)

Last edited by josh w.; 4th May 2014 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 4th May 2014, 08:44 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
Yes, this is quite confusing and I hope it clears up next week (I am a co-administrator on a couple of projects but I will wait until then for my results).

I don't know what is meant by the phrase 'Jewish signature'. When Zalloua used the phrase 'Phoenician signature', it meant that one had Phoenician ancestors--it reflected specific STR patterns.

As I mentioned on another thread, it may be the case that full Ashkenazis (both parental lines) might only show a Diaspora Jewish component, but Sephardim and Mizrachis may have a Diaspora component combined with a host region component. Although unintended, this creates the impression that only Ashkenazis are 'pure' Diaspora Jews. This is absurd, given research on Ashkenazi Mtdna and evidence of conversions to Judaism in Roman times.

Vinnie, my guess is that your mother has the 'Jewish signature'. I am not at all sure but I think that this means that your mother's line converted to Christianity during Roman times. Conversely, the absence of the Diaspora component probably indicates a lack of Jewish ancestry (excluding unique conversions such as the Khazars and one Berber tribe)
I don't know if Southern Italians will still have a Diaspora component. Maybe the Jewish signature simply means that FTDNA still cannot reliably distinguish between Jewish and Italian lines.
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Old 4th May 2014, 09:33 PM
MoberlyDrake MoberlyDrake is offline
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I've tested my half Southern Italian/half Sicilian father, my mother (Western Europe/British Isles), myself, and two double cousins. MyOrigins gives one of the double cousins 10% Jewish Diaspora, but no Jewish to any of the rest of us, so, if it's real, I don't know which side it's on.

Gedmatch has been down for maintenance for days now.
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  #8  
Old 5th May 2014, 12:39 AM
vinnie vinnie is offline
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Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
I don't know if Southern Italians will still have a Diaspora component. Maybe the Jewish signature simply means that FTDNA still cannot reliably distinguish between Jewish and Italian lines.
At this point, no one else seems to be able to either, so if FTDNA can't I won't hold that against them. I'm happy that they're attempting to distinguish Ashkenazim from EEs, and starting to attempt to identify Sephardim.
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Old 5th May 2014, 01:09 AM
Tįltos Tįltos is offline
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Originally Posted by vinnie View Post
At this point, no one else seems to be able to either, so if FTDNA can't I won't hold that against them. I'm happy that they're attempting to distinguish Ashkenazim from EEs, and starting to attempt to identify Sephardim.
I don't know if they will ever be able to break it up so good either. It would be interesting to see though what my Mom would get here if I ever transferred her over.

She is half Arbėreshė. Over at 23andme she only gets 0.1 Middle East and North African. The rest is broken down to 17.9% Balkan, 12.5% Italian, and 18.2% Nonspecific Southern European. Which I think probably represents that half for her.

I did noticed on some of the new heat maps that have the North Mediterranean, it seems to be centered out of Sicily and extends over parts of North Africa. So there would be some overlap.

I like that the new PF can give me a separate breakdown for Jewish from my other Middle Eastern result. This especially pleases me as I had been asked the Middle Eastern survey numerous times.
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Old 5th May 2014, 09:43 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by vinnie View Post
At this point, no one else seems to be able to either, so if FTDNA can't I won't hold that against them. I'm happy that they're attempting to distinguish Ashkenazim from EEs, and starting to attempt to identify Sephardim.
There was a pattern with the old PF and I wonder if it will be present in the new version. Some Southern Italians were informed that they had a minor Jewish component. As far as I know the reverse was not the case for the most part, Ashkenazis were not informed that they had a minor Southern Italian component. This was despite the common autosomal finding that Ashkenazis have a European Mediterranean component. Oracle results support the autosomal research finding.
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