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  #11  
Old 16th November 2017, 01:42 PM
Violen453 Violen453 is offline
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So if a non jew who matches with with a jewish person or multiple jewisb people, then it could be that they have an ancestor who converted? I am so sorry i am completely new to this
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  #12  
Old 16th November 2017, 02:04 PM
dna dna is offline
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Originally Posted by Violen453 View Post
So if a non jew who matches with with a jewish person or multiple jewisb people, then it could be that they have an ancestor who converted? I am so sorry i am completely new to this
If a sibling (or siblings) of an ancestor of a non-Jewish person converted to Judaism, then this non-Jewish person would be matching Jews while having no Jewish ancestry.

Analysis of such cases is very hard, since the converts were often disowned by their families. Not only they were getting no inheritance, but also nobody was supposed to mention their name anymore etc. Upon a conversion, both the first name and the family name were usually changed, so such a person (the convert) might appear in paper genealogy as a child who died in their infancy, but a death record is missing.


Mr. W

P.S.
The above process, but in a mirror, would also describe issues Jews are facing when matching non-Jewish people, after someone who was not their ancestor converted to Christianity.
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  #13  
Old 17th November 2017, 11:14 AM
JMAisHere JMAisHere is offline
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Originally Posted by Violen453 View Post
So if a non jew who matches with with a jewish person or multiple jewisb people, then it could be that they have an ancestor who converted?
If you match with Ivanka Trump (I doubt she has done a FTDNA), you have a match with jewish people. But neither Donald or Ivanka ar jewish. There you see how difficult it can be to assume to much from your matches and there ancestor.
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  #14  
Old 17th November 2017, 11:51 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by JMAisHere View Post
If you match with Ivanka Trump (I doubt she has done a FTDNA), you have a match with jewish people. But neither Donald or Ivanka ar jewish. There you see how difficult it can be to assume to much from your matches and there ancestor.
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Choose a better example. Ivanka's children have Jewish dna. Members of Jared's family have been dna tested. I have a genealogical connection to Jared Kushner---we are related by marriage. It is even possible that Ivanka has Jewish ancestors in central Europe.

Last edited by josh w.; 17th November 2017 at 11:56 AM.
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  #15  
Old 17th November 2017, 12:18 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Choose a better example. Ivanka's children have Jewish dna. Members of Jared's family have been dna tested. I have a genealogical connection to Jared Kushner---we are related by marriage. It is even possible that Ivanka has Jewish ancestors in central Europe.
It is even possible that Donald Trump had Jewish ancestors in Germany. In addition, Ivanka's brother married a Jewish woman and Donald's brother joined a Jewish fraternity.z

Ivana Trump's father had a surname often found among Ashkenazis ( Zelnick--Czech version)

Last edited by josh w.; 17th November 2017 at 01:14 PM.
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  #16  
Old 17th November 2017, 03:30 PM
JMAisHere JMAisHere is offline
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Choose a better example. Ivanka's children have Jewish dna. Members of Jared's family have been dna tested. I have a genealogical connection to Jared Kushner---we are related by marriage. It is even possible that Ivanka has Jewish ancestors in central Europe.
You misses my point, how will Ivankas children in any way prove a Jewish ancestory to Violen453 (in this hypothetical example). If the match was via Donald not via Jared (which the match will not tell you), how will that prove a Jewish ancestor. We have no idea where the branching happens.
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  #17  
Old 17th November 2017, 08:12 PM
kayenjay kayenjay is offline
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Jewish ancestry

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Originally Posted by Violen453 View Post
If somebody takes the mtdna full sequence test, and discovers that they match with some jewish people, like ashkenazim and sephardim, does that mean that they have a jewish maternal ancestor?
Hi, I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation here. I, too, did the full sequence mtDNA test. My haplogroup is H3p and I have 68 coding region matches. 38 of them are at genetic distance of 0 and most appear to be Jewish. My family (all 4 grandparents) came from Poland. I was raised Catholic.

I have been searching for Jewish ancestry based on family lore and comments. On GEDmatch, my brother and I show minimal Jewish ancestry on Jtest (me .75%, my brother 3.45%). I haven't had a chance yet to spend time triangulating matches.

But I have spent considerable time chasing the paper trail and I recently found a document that I think shows the baptism and maybe conversion of my maternal 3x great-grandmother in 1812. I also have the paper trail that shows the lineage from her to my grandmother. She is often referred to as "neophita" in these records.

I have attached a copy of the baptismal record, written in Latin. I am having a hard time deciphering it. I think it says Infidelum Judaem (unbelieving Jew?) My 3x great-grandmother, Victoria Agnes Grudzienska, was about 30 years old when she was baptized, and got married to my Catholic 3x great-grandfather a couple of months later. If anyone out there can read Latin handwriting, I'd appreciate your help!

Sorry I have been so long-winded here, but I would say to you, don't give up. Dig into the paper trail route, and see where you land! I think, despite having minimal AJ DNA, I do think I have a Jewish ancestor.

Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to comment on my theory!
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File Type: jpg 1812 Victoria baptism.jpg (568.3 KB, 13 views)
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  #18  
Old 17th November 2017, 08:55 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by JMAisHere View Post
You misses my point, how will Ivankas children in any way prove a Jewish ancestory to Violen453 (in this hypothetical example). If the match was via Donald not via Jared (which the match will not tell you), how will that prove a Jewish ancestor. We have no idea where the branching happens.
OK but there is a possibility that Donald had Jewish ancestry. There may be other explanations, but Donald's brother was in a Jewish fraternity.

Last edited by josh w.; 17th November 2017 at 08:59 PM.
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  #19  
Old 17th November 2017, 09:56 PM
dna dna is offline
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Originally Posted by kayenjay View Post
Hi, I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation here. I, too, did the full sequence mtDNA test. My haplogroup is H3p and I have 68 coding region matches. 38 of them are at genetic distance of 0 and most appear to be Jewish. My family (all 4 grandparents) came from Poland. I was raised Catholic.

I have been searching for Jewish ancestry based on family lore and comments. On GEDmatch, my brother and I show minimal Jewish ancestry on Jtest (me .75%, my brother 3.45%). I haven't had a chance yet to spend time triangulating matches.

But I have spent considerable time chasing the paper trail and I recently found a document that I think shows the baptism and maybe conversion of my maternal 3x great-grandmother in 1812. I also have the paper trail that shows the lineage from her to my grandmother. She is often referred to as "neophita" in these records.

I have attached a copy of the baptismal record, written in Latin. I am having a hard time deciphering it. I think it says Infidelum Judaem (unbelieving Jew?) My 3x great-grandmother, Victoria Agnes Grudzienska, was about 30 years old when she was baptized, and got married to my Catholic 3x great-grandfather a couple of months later. If anyone out there can read Latin handwriting, I'd appreciate your help!

Sorry I have been so long-winded here, but I would say to you, don't give up. Dig into the paper trail route, and see where you land! I think, despite having minimal AJ DNA, I do think I have a Jewish ancestor.

Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to comment on my theory!
That is precisely why I moved to genetic genealogy !
I had left deciphering illegible handwriting to others

All I am able to recognize are just names, plenty of them...

Infidelum Judaem = Jewish non-believer, as in a Jewish person not believing in Christ, as contrasted to Jewish believers in Christ (Saint Peter, Saint Paul, etc.). It sounds weird in modern English, but was completely natural some time ago.

Neophita is just neophyte, a statement of fact. Yes, she was a newcomer (starter) in the Catholic Church. Today the word catechumen would be used (the plural is catechumens...) before the baptism, but after the baptism not too many people make any distinction (nowadays so many change faith, sometimes often, that it is not as important as it used to be).

Now, what the origins are of that particular H3p lineage, I do not know. It might be impossible to track, as you have to remember that there was a very small (one thousand?) group of Jews 1000 years ago that with a small influx from local populations (mostly German and Polish) had grown into millions of Ahkenazim.

Your Wiktoria Agnieszka Grudzieńska (I can clearly see "ń"), when was her baptism? I can only see Anno Domini 1812, ~~ 27 ...er
If you can look through adjacent records, or it is indexed, it could be easy to answer.


Mr. W
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  #20  
Old 17th November 2017, 11:05 PM
kayenjay kayenjay is offline
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Mr. W, thank you for your thoughtful reply!

Google has been my friend in all this, and if I believe what I read, neophita means convert to Christianity. And the surname Grudzienski(ska) is a surname taken by Jews who converted in the month of December, which is the case here.

It looks like the date that you see in the record 27 Dec 1812 is the date that she was baptized. And she was about 30 years old. The surrounding records are baptisms of infants from 1812. She married in Feb. 1813, so I am thinking she got baptized so she could get married.
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