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  #41  
Old 3rd March 2017, 01:34 AM
malchik malchik is offline
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Originally Posted by montagnoli View Post
As I said before, I continue to think as something very unlikely (although not impossible, of course) that contadini from small villages in Veneto would get involved with someone from abroad. La ringrazio ancora.
My interpretation is that the results we get in MO, GEDMatch do not mean that our ancestors were French, Finnish, Italians, Spaniards, British, etc... which somehow mingled to generate our DNA today.

I first assume that at some point back in time there were small groups of people, lets call them A, B, C, etc... which went into different directions mixing with each other in different proportions.

There werent so many people in the past, not even with formed identities, so diverse from each other genetically... mutations in time created more diversity.
That is why I find hilarious when people readily assume there is a connection between England and Veneto (when they see 5% British Isles) and readily attribute this to "Romans" of any kind...

Imagine in your 5th generation you have 32 surnames. All of them are from Germany. These 16 couples have many children, who go north, south, east and west. They, in turn, have their own many children, some of them mingle among themselves with cousins who went north, south, east and west.

In your case I would assume

FIRST: you share some DEEP ANCESTRY with Finns, but you are not necessarily descending from any Finn yourself, as they are not descending from any Northern Italian themselves.

SECOND: you do have a greatgreatgrandmother/father who was ethnically close to/ or coming directly from a Finnougric population or some group of ancestors around 500 years ago...

THIRD: ?

The admixture % does not come with a time stamp. One thing is to RECENT ANCESTRY and the other thing is DEEP ANCESTRY.
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  #42  
Old 3rd March 2017, 08:26 AM
montagnoli montagnoli is offline
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Originally Posted by malchik View Post

The admixture % does not come with a time stamp. One thing is to RECENT ANCESTRY and the other thing is DEEP ANCESTRY.
My method of reasoning about results got from admixture calculators is the following:

a) Firstly I evaluate results in terms of 'normal' x 'unusual'. For instance, 'southern European' and 'central western European' results (in due percentages) are normal results for (ethnic) northern Italians, but 'Finnish', or 'British Isles', are unusual results for them.

b) Having considered a result as unusual, I try to find its meaning taking two factors into consideration:

1) Is such result actually rare for the population under consideration? For example, the Asia Minor result (on MO) for north Italians seemed strange for me in a first moment, but I saw later that it is not a rare result for that population. It's in fact the opposite: it seems that all Italians (northern or southern) get Asia Minor on MO. In this case, I think the result in question has to be interpreted as showing DEEP ancestry. As I've commented in the other thread, I think a good explanation for Asia Minor result for Italians is dna from neolithic farmers who were in Italy well before the arrival of Indo-European tribes.

2) The second factor I consider in order to interpret an unusual result are the matches. Autosomal matches indicate a relatively recent common ancestor. For example, as far as I know, north Italian people do not usualy have autosomal matches in Turkey, despite of the Asia Minor result on MO. This fact seems to support my hypothesis that such result has to do with deep ancestry of Italians. But if you have an unusual result on MO (or Eurogenes, etc.), and you have autosomal matches from that place, then I think the possibility of RECENT ancestry may not be disregarded.

Applying the above described method to my case, I am considering the possibility of having a Finnish (or Hungarian) RECENT ancestor. Other north Italians do not have 'Finnish' in their results, so it cannot be ancient dna. And the autosomal matches I have in Finland and Siberia point to a recent ancestor from that region. I don't take it for granted, though, because this sounds so unlikely for Venetian peasants (if my ancestors were merchants in the time of the Serenissima (Republic of Venice) the story would be different ). Anyway, I think it is a possibility to be investigated.
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  #43  
Old 3rd March 2017, 08:47 AM
montagnoli montagnoli is offline
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Originally Posted by gensrchr2 View Post
Magyars (Hungary) and Finns descend from the same population near the Ural Mts. They share a similar language and many from both have the N haplogroup. You might look into that.

However the Finns peopled Finland I think 2000 years ago and the Magyars 1000 years ago so who knows if MO would counting Hungarian blended in with existing Europeans as Southern European or Eastern European instead of Finnish. It might take someone with Hungarian ancestry to post their results to see.
Thank you for your observation. I know people from Hungary. I don't know if someone of them is interested in (genetic) genealogy, but, if so, it would be nice to take a look at their admixture results.
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  #44  
Old 3rd March 2017, 11:19 AM
malchik malchik is offline
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Originally Posted by montagnoli View Post
... In this case, I think the result in question has to be interpreted as showing DEEP ancestry. As I've commented in the other thread, I think a good explanation for Asia Minor result for Italians is dna from neolithic farmers who were in Italy well before the arrival of Indo-European tribes.
Reasonable.

Quote:
2) The second factor I consider in order to interpret an unusual result are the matches. Autosomal matches indicate a relatively recent common ancestor.
It depends on how you define match and relatively recent common ancestor. Your matches can be distant and indicate a remote common ancestor, but that can be only noise...

Quote:
For example, as far as I know, north Italian people do not usualy have autosomal matches in Turkey, despite of the Asia Minor result on MO. This fact seems to support my hypothesis that such result has to do with deep ancestry of Italians.
This is probably because the reference population for Asia Minor is not exactly taken from Turkey, but from Armenia (so I read once...). Plus, because there was no significant interaction (settlements, migration, invasion, occupation, ...) among Northern Italians from Veneto and Turks in the last 1000 years that would show up in admixture (my assumption).

Quote:
But if you have an unusual result on MO (or Eurogenes, etc.), and you have autosomal matches from that place, then I think the possibility of RECENT ancestry may not be disregarded. Applying the above described method to my case, I am considering the possibility of having a Finnish (or Hungarian) RECENT ancestor.
That is why I meant with "SECOND", but how RECENT you think?

Quote:
Other north Italians do not have 'Finnish' in their results, so it cannot be ancient dna.
Are you sure you are an exception? This can be statistics of small numbers... I have so far very very few matches from Northern Italy, so I still believe there arent many test takers out there sharing their results in the FTDNA matches database.

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And the autosomal matches I have in Finland and Siberia point to a recent ancestor from that region.
I think that probably the last time when the common ancestors of Finnish, Hungarian and Siberian (by the way, places too far away from each other) lived close to each other was at least 2000 years ago, nowhere near Italy.

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I don't take it for granted, though, because this sounds so unlikely for Venetian peasants (if my ancestors were merchants in the time of the Serenissima (Republic of Venice) the story would be different ). Anyway, I think it is a possibility to be investigated.
Yes, it is very intriguing.
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  #45  
Old 3rd March 2017, 01:06 PM
montagnoli montagnoli is offline
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Originally Posted by malchik View Post
It depends on how you define match and relatively recent common ancestor. Your matches can be distant and indicate a remote common ancestor, but that can be only noise...
Yes, some matches can be just noise. In the case of these Finnish, Norwegian and Siberian matches, the largest segment shared is of no more than 10 cM, and so I am aware of the noise possibility. I just think that I can't take anything for granted. Maybe these matches are only noise, maybe not. It's a thing to be investigated.


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Originally Posted by malchik View Post
That is why I meant with "SECOND", but how RECENT you think?
Well, the most recent common ancestors who I (supposedly) have with the matches in question are five to seven generations behind, according to results on Gedmatch. Anyway, until my 3rd-great-grandparents I have a complete paper trail (all the 32 antenati), and so it must be more than 5 generations behind.


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Originally Posted by malchik View Post
Are you sure you are an exception? This can be statistics of small numbers... I have so far very very few matches from Northern Italy, so I still believe there arent many test takers out there sharing their results in the FTDNA matches database.
Good point. I've already complained that there seems to be too few Italians taking dna tests. On Family Finder, the majority of my matches are from US and Canada... But it would be quite a surprise for me to discover that Finnish results are not rare for Veneti (and for Italians in general) in ancestrality tests.
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  #46  
Old 4th March 2017, 01:38 AM
malchik malchik is offline
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Originally Posted by montagnoli View Post
Yes, some matches can be just noise. In the case of these Finnish, Norwegian and Siberian matches, the largest segment shared is of no more than 10 cM, and so I am aware of the noise possibility. I just think that I can't take anything for granted. Maybe these matches are only noise, maybe not. It's a thing to be investigated.
I found this document. The reference population for the Fennoscandian component in Eurogenes is only from Finns.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3...xQdGpZdW8/edit

The Iberian component for Italians indicate DEEP ANCESTRY, as does the West Meditteranean component which is taken from Sardegna only. This is almost 100% stock from Mesolithic...?

Quote:
Well, the most recent common ancestors who I (supposedly) have with the matches in question are five to seven generations behind, according to results on Gedmatch. Anyway, until my 3rd-great-grandparents I have a complete paper trail (all the 32 antenati), and so it must be more than 5 generations behind.
Well, by default, you know then half of the 6th generation surnames on each paternal line (assuming continuity on all lines). I find it unlikely that half of your 6th is contributing to Finnish genes, but I hope you learn a lot from investigating this. It is a challenge.

You are aware that if you would have 25% of Finnish, that would not necessarily mean you have a grandmother/father from Finnland, right? It means (unless you have such a intact chunk) that you accumulated from many ancestors far back in time some tiny pieces that amount to 25%. Does that make sense to you?

Quote:
Good point. I've already complained that there seems to be too few Italians taking dna tests. On Family Finder, the majority of my matches are from US and Canada... But it would be quite a surprise for me to discover that Finnish results are not rare for Veneti (and for Italians in general) in ancestrality tests.
Is there any piece of history that would help you to decipher this puzzle? I wish I knew more of this.
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  #47  
Old 7th March 2017, 11:20 AM
montagnoli montagnoli is offline
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Originally Posted by malchik View Post
I found this document. The reference population for the Fennoscandian component in Eurogenes is only from Finns.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3...xQdGpZdW8/edit
Yes, I was aware of it. One of the matches I mentioned above has 81.57% Fennoscandian on k36.


Quote:
Originally Posted by malchik View Post
Well, by default, you know then half of the 6th generation surnames on each paternal line (assuming continuity on all lines). I find it unlikely that half of your 6th is contributing to Finnish genes, but I hope you learn a lot from investigating this. It is a challenge.

You are aware that if you would have 25% of Finnish, that would not necessarily mean you have a grandmother/father from Finnland, right? It means (unless you have such a intact chunk) that you accumulated from many ancestors far back in time some tiny pieces that amount to 25%. Does that make sense to you?
Given that Italians (supposedly) don't usually have any Finnish dna, I think that if an Italian person gets around 25% Finnish in his/her results, it's highly probable that he/she has one Finnish grandparent. Yet if he/she gets 25% Asia Minor (using the same example again ), I think it is probable that each one of his/her four grandparents has around that percentage of dna from Asia Minor.

Thus I believe that my 6.56% Fennoscandian on k36 could be explained by one Finnish 2nd-great-grandparent. But my paper trail includes all my 16 2nd-great-grandparents, and none of them is Finnish... I could have two Finnish 3rd-great-grandparents, but it's also not the case. To be sure, I don't know the names of all my 64 4th-great-grandparents. If just one of them was Finnish, would I have around 6% Finnish dna? I know that one Finnish 4th-great-grandparent does not mean exactly 1/64 (or 1.5625%) Finnish dna. But would I have 6% in such a case? I could have, say, three Finnish 4th-great-grandparents, in three different lines, but this is so improbable!


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Originally Posted by malchik View Post
Is there any piece of history that would help you to decipher this puzzle? I wish I knew more of this.
I am not aware of any episode in the history of the Republic of Venice involving relations with Finland. The "Serenissima" had commercial relations mainly with the Middle East. Regarding to my own family history, my grandparents (when they were alive), used to say that their ancestors were in Veneto "since always"... So it continues to be a mistery. Well, it means that I have a new motive to go ahead with my paper trail !
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  #48  
Old 8th March 2017, 02:01 PM
malchik malchik is offline
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Originally Posted by montagnoli View Post
I am not aware of any episode in the history of the Republic of Venice involving relations with Finland. The "Serenissima" had commercial relations mainly with the Middle East. Regarding to my own family history, my grandparents (when they were alive), used to say that their ancestors were in Veneto "since always"... So it continues to be a mistery. Well, it means that I have a new motive to go ahead with my paper trail !
As far as I can tell from my experience (from browsing 10.000 pages of stato civile records from a time span of 100 years (from 1800 to 1900), I rarely saw any non-italian surname in the Veneto areas I searched for. This would mean in my case the 6th or 7th generation i.e. maximum of 1.56% or 0.78% contribution from each ancestor. I think it is very unlikely that you had any 100% Finnish ancestor, most likely that is ancient DNA shared by surrounding populations that carried with them some Finnish blood over centuries and accumulated in you. Compare yourself with Austrians, Slovenians, Germans, Serbians, Hungarians, etc... see how much to they have of this type of ethniticy. That is interesting.
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  #49  
Old 9th March 2017, 11:08 AM
montagnoli montagnoli is offline
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Originally Posted by malchik View Post
As far as I can tell from my experience (from browsing 10.000 pages of stato civile records from a time span of 100 years (from 1800 to 1900), I rarely saw any non-italian surname in the Veneto areas I searched for. This would mean in my case the 6th or 7th generation i.e. maximum of 1.56% or 0.78% contribution from each ancestor. I think it is very unlikely that you had any 100% Finnish ancestor, most likely that is ancient DNA shared by surrounding populations that carried with them some Finnish blood over centuries and accumulated in you. Compare yourself with Austrians, Slovenians, Germans, Serbians, Hungarians, etc... see how much to they have of this type of ethniticy. That is interesting.
I browsed also a lot of registry pages at Antenati and at Family Search sites (both of Stato Civile Italiano and of Stato Civile Napoleonico), and I don't remember of having seen one foreign surname. Perhaps in Venezia, but I doubt that you will find foreign surnames in the registries of small villages.

That said, I think that I actually was, as you said above, doing statistics of small numbers. I received yesterday results of a mtFull Sequence test, and saw that my mt haplogroup is V3. Here is the brief description ftdna provides for this hg:

"Mitochondrial haplogroup V is a primarily European haplogroup and underwent an expansion within Europe beginning approximately 13,000 years ago. Though it occurs at low frequency throughout Europe, it is interesting to note that the highest frequency of haplogroup V is found among the Saami in Finland and the Catalunya region of Spain. Some evidence suggests that individuals bearing haplogroup V participated in the colonization of Europe following the last period of glaciation. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup".

There is again a connection with Finland, but, looking at the list of people in hg V, at MitoSearch site, I saw a lot of Italians and, specifically, of Veneti. So it seems that, maybe, my results in MO were not so uncommon for the Veneti as I was thinking they were...

Therefore I think you are right when you say that those 5% Finnish which I've got on MO represent ancient dna accumulated over the centuries, and not some recent 100% Finnish ancestor.
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  #50  
Old 9th March 2017, 11:27 AM
malchik malchik is offline
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Originally Posted by montagnoli View Post
Therefore I think you are right when you say that those 5% Finnish which I've got on MO represent ancient dna accumulated over the centuries, and not some recent 100% Finnish ancestor.
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!
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