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  #21  
Old 5th January 2017, 12:12 AM
Tabitha Tabitha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
OK. That clarifies things.

In a certain sense, if you're comparing admixture percentages among the three companies, you're comparing apples to oranges to pears. Each company has their own database of reference populations and their own algorithms to determine percentages.

So, it's not a good comparison to look at your AncestryDNA admixture percentages and those at FTDNA, especially the 3 year old poor analysis from the Population Finder feature. As I mentioned in my previous post, myOrigins is an improvement for Sicily Project members in not overestimating Middle Eastern or Jewish ancestry, at least as much as Population Finder did.

If you want to see a comparison of the differences in admixture percentages at the three companies, here are mine.

FTDNA myOrigins

Southern European - 59%
Middle Eastern - 41% (Asia Minor - 36% and North Africa - 5%)

AncestryDNA Ethnicity Estimate

Italy/Greece - 69%
Middle East - 10%
Caucasus - 7%
Iberian Peninsula - 4%
Great Britain - 3%
European Jewish - 3%

23andMe Ancestry Composition

Southern European - 94.7% (includes Italian 75.8%, Balkan 2.3%, Iberian 1.3%, Broadly Southern European 15.4%)
Northwestern European - 0.2%
Ashkenazi Jewish - < 0.1%
Broadly European - 1.1%
Middle Eastern/North Africa - 3.6% (includes Middle Eastern 3.1% and Broadly Middle Eastern & North African 0.5%)

I regard the 23andMe analysis as the most accurate and useful. 23andMe has specifically designed Ancestry Composition to hone in on the last 500 years of ancestry. As I mentioned above, FTDNA designed their algorithm to reflect ancestry as old as 1,000 to several thousand years ago. I don't remember if AncestryDNA has publicly stated what period of ancestry their estimates cover.

Having said all that, I do find it strange that AncestryDNA hasn't given your mother, with full southern Italian ancestry, any Middle Eastern at all. They did give me 10%. I suppose it's possible that she is just an outlier, whose ancestry doesn't include much distant Middle Eastern ancestry. She does have 13% Western European, so maybe she has significant distant ancestry (over 300 years ago) from north of Italy, instead of the usual distant Middle Eastern ancestry that a southern Italian would have.



Thanks for the detailed information. Everything you said makes sense.

Now I'm tempted to have a test done through 23andMe.

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  #22  
Old 24th January 2017, 08:46 AM
dave21286 dave21286 is offline
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My mother's family is all from Sicily. The town where both of her parents grew up had a heavy Norman influence. No one in her family has a typical Italian look. All are very fair skinned and many were /are blue eyed and blond. My father's side is a mix of central European (Czech) and German / French. My AncestryDNA results came back as: 40% Italian Greek, 25% British Isles, 20% Europe East,and the remaining 15% as a mix of Caucuses and Europe West. FTDNA shows me as 32% So. European, 26% E. European, 12% British Isles, and approx. 30% Middle Eastern. My dodecad results using Oracle 4 show quite a bit of Orkney Islands. Kent, Argyl, etc. My mother's has even stronger Scotts / Irish segments while still showing high Italian heritage. Any ideas on how to interpret?
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  #23  
Old 2nd January 2018, 11:53 AM
Dimanto Dimanto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabitha View Post
Thanks so much for responding. Actually,my mother and I did our tests through Ancestry.com.

Mine:

35 percent Italian
34 percent Scandinavian
11 percent Iberian
15 percent Great Britain
5 percent Europe West

My mother's:

72 percent Italian
15 percent Iberian
13 percent Europe West

I find it strange because from my research as well as friends who took DNA tests, most have some percentage of Middle Eastern, even if it's small.





On AncestryDNA I get: 28% Europe South (region: Southern Italy), 11% Caucasus (region: Southern Italy), 2% Middle Eastern (region Southern Italy), 5% European Jewish (part of low confidence regions) 10% Iberian Peninsula (must be ancient), 18 % Europe West (region Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg), 25% Great Britain (must be my Dutch side), 1% Scandinavia (region Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg).

Very similar, only I have some Caucasus, European Jewish and a bit of Middle East. Although I think that Campania has some internal regional variation, with Naples scoring higher on these components than benevento and Avellino.

Last edited by Dimanto; 2nd January 2018 at 11:56 AM.
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  #24  
Old 2nd January 2018, 01:23 PM
JamesBianco JamesBianco is offline
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Middle East & Sicilian differences with Dodecad V3

After reading this thread I thought it might be interesting to see differences in the Dodecad V3 results between someone half Middle Eastern and someone Half Sicilian. Sicilians are by far the most ethnically mixed of all Italians, despite being very similar in DNA to Southern Mainland Italians.

Dodecad V3

Kit NJ9910302 (my father, 1/2 Iranian)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 30.52
2 Mediterranean 25.09
3 West_European 17.56
4 East_European 9.06
5 Southwest_Asian 8.92
6 South_Asian 4.74
7 Northeast_Asian 1.79
8 Southeast_Asian 1.15
9 East_African 0.68
10 Northwest_African 0.47
11 Neo_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 11.73
2 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 12.65
3 Stalskoe (Xing) 13.67
4 Turkish (Dodecad) 14.01
5 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 15.09
6 Kurd (Dodecad) 16.58
7 Kurd (Xing) 16.67
8 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 16.72
9 Turks (Behar) 17.63
10 Greek (Dodecad) 19.05
11 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 19.08
12 Tuscan (Xing) 19.37
13 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 19.46
14 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 20.07
15 TSI (HapMap) 20.37
16 Tuscan (Henn) 20.57
17 Urkarah (Xing) 20.6
18 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 20.67
19 C_Italian (Dodecad) 20.97
20 Romanians_14 (Behar) 21.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.3% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Slovenian (Xing) @ 3.55
2 62.1% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) + 37.9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.75
3 65.1% Kurd (Xing) + 34.9% Slovenian (Xing) @ 3.75
4 67.5% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) + 32.5% Slovenian (Xing) @ 3.89
5 68.2% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) + 31.8% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.97
6 65.9% Kurd (Xing) + 34.1% Hungarians (Behar) @ 4.07
7 74.5% Turkish (Dodecad) + 25.5% German (Dodecad) @ 4.18
8 69.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 30.6% Slovenian (Xing) @ 4.36
9 79.2% Turkish (Dodecad) + 20.8% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 4.63
10 56.5% Kurd (Dodecad) + 43.5% Romanians_14 (Behar) @ 4.64
11 74.6% Turkish (Dodecad) + 25.4% N._European (Xing) @ 4.65
12 66.2% Kurd (Dodecad) + 33.8% Hungarians (Behar) @ 4.69
13 53.6% Assyrian (Dodecad) + 46.4% Slovenian (Xing) @ 4.74
14 71% Kurd (Xing) + 29% German (Dodecad) @ 4.74
15 79.3% Turkish (Dodecad) + 20.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 4.75
16 60% Iranian_Jews (Behar) + 40% Slovenian (Xing) @ 4.77
17 65.5% Kurd (Dodecad) + 34.5% Slovenian (Xing) @ 4.84
18 71% Kurd (Xing) + 29% CEU (HapMap) @ 4.84
19 62.7% Stalskoe (Xing) + 37.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 4.85
20 75.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 24.6% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 4.93

Kit DJ7712643 (my mother 1/2 Sicilian, one village)


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 34.2
2 Mediterranean 31.36
3 West_Asian 14.92
4 Southwest_Asian 6.89
5 East_European 6.37
6 Northwest_African 4.9
7 South_Asian 0.53
8 East_African 0.43
9 Southeast_Asian 0.17
10 Palaeo_African 0.16
11 Neo_African 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan (Xing) 8.01
2 Tuscan (Henn) 8.09
3 TSI (HapMap) 8.52
4 N_Italian (Dodecad) 13.59
5 O_Italian (Dodecad) 13.8
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 16.04
7 Portuguese (Dodecad) 17.33
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 17.36
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 17.67
10 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.27
11 Slovenian (Xing) 18.57
12 French (HGDP) 18.66
13 C_Italian (Dodecad) 18.75
14 French (Dodecad) 18.97
15 Romanians_14 (Behar) 19.71
16 IBS (1000Genomes) 20.04
17 Spaniards (Behar) 20.59
18 Spanish (Dodecad) 20.74
19 Hungarians (Behar) 21.09
20 CEU (HapMap) 21.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.4% CEU (HapMap) + 48.6% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.13
2 51% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 49% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.32
3 51.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 48.7% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 2.4
4 50.7% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 49.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 2.67
5 56.3% N._European (Xing) + 43.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.83
6 54.8% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 45.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.05
7 55.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 44.2% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.13
8 56.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 43.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.16
9 50.8% N._European (Xing) + 49.2% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 3.27
10 54.2% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 45.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.28
11 54.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 45.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.41
12 57% CEU (HapMap) + 43% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.5
13 55.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 44.8% CEU (HapMap) @ 3.64
14 57.2% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 42.8% CEU (HapMap) @ 3.69
15 57.9% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 42.1% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 3.79
16 57.6% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 42.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.81
17 51.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 48.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.83
18 60% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 40% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 3.84
19 59.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 40.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.84
20 58.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 41.3% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.84
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  #25  
Old 4th January 2018, 06:51 PM
Dimanto Dimanto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBianco View Post
After reading this thread I thought it might be interesting to see differences in the Dodecad V3 results between someone half Middle Eastern and someone Half Sicilian. Sicilians are by far the most ethnically mixed of all Italians, despite being very similar in DNA to Southern Mainland Italians.

(my mother 1/2 Sicilian, one village)[/B]

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 34.2
2 Mediterranean 31.36
3 West_Asian 14.92
4 Southwest_Asian 6.89
5 East_European 6.37
6 Northwest_African 4.9
7 South_Asian 0.53
8 East_African 0.43
9 Southeast_Asian 0.17
10 Palaeo_African 0.16
11 Neo_African 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan (Xing) 8.01
2 Tuscan (Henn) 8.09
3 TSI (HapMap) 8.52
4 N_Italian (Dodecad) 13.59
5 O_Italian (Dodecad) 13.8
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 16.04
7 Portuguese (Dodecad) 17.33
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 17.36
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 17.67
10 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.27
11 Slovenian (Xing) 18.57
12 French (HGDP) 18.66
13 C_Italian (Dodecad) 18.75
14 French (Dodecad) 18.97
15 Romanians_14 (Behar) 19.71
16 IBS (1000Genomes) 20.04
17 Spaniards (Behar) 20.59
18 Spanish (Dodecad) 20.74
19 Hungarians (Behar) 21.09
20 CEU (HapMap) 21.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.4% CEU (HapMap) + 48.6% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.13
2 51% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 49% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.32
3 51.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 48.7% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 2.4
4 50.7% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 49.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 2.67
5 56.3% N._European (Xing) + 43.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.83
6 54.8% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 45.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.05
7 55.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 44.2% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.13
8 56.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 43.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.16
9 50.8% N._European (Xing) + 49.2% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 3.27
10 54.2% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 45.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.28
11 54.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 45.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.41
12 57% CEU (HapMap) + 43% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.5
13 55.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 44.8% CEU (HapMap) @ 3.64
14 57.2% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 42.8% CEU (HapMap) @ 3.69
15 57.9% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 42.1% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 3.79
16 57.6% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 42.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.81
17 51.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 48.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 3.83
18 60% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 40% Orkney (1000 Genomes) @ 3.84
19 59.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 40.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.84
20 58.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 41.3% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.84
Could you be more specific. What is the other half made of besides Iranian and Sicilian? I'd say your mom has mainly mixed northern European ancestry on one side, with perhaps an additional East European element and S_Italian/Sicilian on the other side - Palermo would be a good candidate.

Contrary to popular belief, Sicilians are not very different from mainland Southern Italians, except maybe some additional North African admixture in some regions. Some Sicilian GEDmatch results I've seen come out similarly even to people native of Southern Lazio, so not every Sicilian is as ''exotic'' as some people like to believe; there's a clear regional variation within the island, with the greatest measurable difference being between the east and the west.

If you like to compare, here are my Dodecad V3 results:

# Population Percent
1 West_European 37.76
2 Mediterranean 31.96
3 West_Asian 17.61
4 East_European 6.38
5 Southwest_Asian 5.76
6 East_African 0.26
7 Northeast_Asian 0.18
8 South_Asian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 TSI (HapMap) 8.61
2 Tuscan (Henn) 8.84
3 Tuscan (Xing) 8.93
4 N_Italian (Dodecad) 13.2
5 O_Italian (Dodecad) 14.64
6 French (HGDP) 16.35
7 French (Dodecad) 16.94
8 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.08
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.17
10 Slovenian (Xing) 18.22
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 18.24
12 Portuguese (Dodecad) 18.74
13 CEU (HapMap) 19.01
14 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 19.38
15 N._European (Xing) 19.69
16 C_Italian (Dodecad) 19.86
17 Spaniards (Behar) 20.37
18 IBS (1000Genomes) 20.43
19 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 20.8
20 Romanians_14 (Behar) 20.93

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% TSI (HapMap) + 20.3% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.7
2 54.8% S_Italian (Dodecad) + 45.2% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 1.74
3 57.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 42.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.1
4 79.2% Tuscan (Xing) + 20.8% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.11
5 54.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) + 45.8% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.13
6 70.1% TSI (HapMap) + 29.9% N._European (Xing) @ 2.13
7 80.3% TSI (HapMap) + 19.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.2
8 72.9% Tuscan (Xing) + 27.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.21
9 79.7% Tuscan (Xing) + 20.3% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.24
10 64.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 35.2% Cypriots (Behar) @ 2.24
11 71.3% TSI (HapMap) + 28.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 2.26
12 64.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 35.6% Cypriots (Behar) @ 2.27
13 57.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 42.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.29
14 51.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 48.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.34
15 70.6% Tuscan (Xing) + 29.4% Argyll (1000 Genomes) @ 2.45
16 69.5% Tuscan (Xing) + 30.5% N._European (Xing) @ 2.47
17 54.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 45.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.53
18 54.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 45.4% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.55
19 67.4% French (Dodecad) + 32.6% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 2.55
20 72.1% TSI (HapMap) + 27.9% German (Dodecad) @ 2.58

Me and your mom are very similar, although your mom clearly has a North African element that I lack and my West Asian percentage is a bit higher.

Here are my mom' results:

# Population Percent
1 West_European 56.18
2 Mediterranean 22.71
3 East_European 12.77
4 West_Asian 7.12
5 South_Asian 1.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 1.71
2 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 2.37
3 Orcadian (HGDP) 2.58
4 N._European (Xing) 3.34
5 CEU (HapMap) 3.85
6 German (Dodecad) 5.21
7 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 7.87
8 Dutch (Dodecad) 8.96
9 Kent (1000 Genomes) 10.8
10 British_Isles (Dodecad) 12.09
11 British (Dodecad) 12.52
12 Swedish (Dodecad) 12.53
13 Cornwall (1000 Genomes) 13.26
14 French (HGDP) 13.61
15 Norwegian (Dodecad) 13.78
16 French (Dodecad) 13.87
17 Irish (Dodecad) 14.75
18 Slovenian (Xing) 17.3
19 Hungarians (Behar) 21.38
20 FIN (1000Genomes) 22.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.6% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 5.4% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 1.16
2 93.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 6.1% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.16
3 96.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 3.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.25
4 91.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 8.2% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 1.31
5 92.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 7.9% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.33
6 93.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 6.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.34
7 96.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 3.6% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 1.37
8 98.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 1.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 1.39
9 98% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 1.39
10 91% Orcadian (HGDP) + 9% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 1.39
11 79.9% Dutch (Dodecad) + 20.1% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.39
12 96.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 3.7% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 1.39
13 95.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 4.2% Russian (HGDP) @ 1.43
14 85% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15% German (Dodecad) @ 1.46
15 84.2% Dutch (Dodecad) + 15.8% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.49
16 94.4% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 5.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 1.5
17 98.2% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 1.8% Russian (HGDP) @ 1.5
18 98.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 1.7% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.51
19 68.2% German (Dodecad) + 31.8% Kent (1000 Genomes) @ 1.51
20 97.8% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.2% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.52

Last edited by Dimanto; 4th January 2018 at 07:45 PM.
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  #26  
Old 4th January 2018, 07:41 PM
JamesBianco JamesBianco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
Could you be more specific. What is the other half made of besides Iranian and Sicilian? I'd say your mom has mainly mixed northern European on one side, with perhaps an additional East European element and S_Italian/Sicilian, Palermo would be a good candidate.
My father is 1/2 Iranian and 1/2 mixed Western Europe
My mother is 1/2 French Canadian and 1/2 Sicily (yes Provincia Palermo)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
Contrary to popular belief, Sicilians are not very different from mainland Southern Italians, except maybe some additional North African admixture in some regions.
I am a genealogist who specializes in Italian research, especially utilizing 15th - 17th Century Church and civil records. You will find a great deal more Spanish Sephardic Jew, Greek (via colonies in Albania which came to Sicily in the 15th and 16th Centuries) and North African ancestry in most Western Sicilians. Because Sicilian church records do exist and are available back into the early 1500s you do actually find some of these immigrants I mention with notations of nativity on marriage records of that period. I have at least 6 Spanish, and 2 greek ancestors I know the names and life details on. The eariest marriage entries in the church regsters of Provincia Palermo (c. 1525) show that perhaps 25% of the grooms where from elsewhere. The fact is that Sicily experienced a greater and more importantly a more recent influx of peoples from other foreign places than Mainland Italy north of Calabria. You will find a similar germanic genetic influence in the northern part of Italy above Tuscany. Sicilians are genetically much more ethnically diverse in more recent times than mainland Italians, it is a fact and not a misconception.
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  #27  
Old 4th January 2018, 08:07 PM
Dimanto Dimanto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBianco View Post
My father is 1/2 Iranian and 1/2 mixed Western Europe
My mother is 1/2 French Canadian and 1/2 Sicily (yes Provincia Palermo)


I am a genealogist who specializes in Italian research, especially utilizing 15th - 17th Century Church and civil records. You will find a great deal more Spanish Sephardic Jew, Greek (via colonies in Albania which came to Sicily in the 15th and 16th Centuries) and North African ancestry in most Western Sicilians. Because Sicilian church records do exist and are available back into the early 1500s you do actually find some of these immigrants I mention with notations of nativity on marriage records of that period. I have at least 6 Spanish, and 2 greek ancestors I know the names and life details on. The eariest marriage entries in the church regsters of Provincia Palermo (c. 1525) show that perhaps 25% of the grooms where from elsewhere. The fact is that Sicily experienced a greater and more importantly a more recent influx of peoples from other foreign places than Mainland Italy north of Calabria. You will find a similar germanic genetic influence in the northern part of Italy above Tuscany. Sicilians are genetically much more ethnically diverse in more recent times than mainland Italians, it is a fact and not a misconception.
Yes, I agree that when considering the Mezziogiorno, Sicily is the most diverse of all and has (especially on a individual level) more variation, indeed due to different historical events, although small still measurable and seen when researching genealogy. As for A-DNA tests developed for comparing populations and individuals but also research done on IBD and overal population structure within the Mezziogiorno, reveals that the people of the south who are called Terroni by those from the north, are mostly very similar and not much effected by geneflow from other regions that haven't effected the entirety of what is called the Mezzogiorno. We do see higher North African scores in some Sicilians, which is due to the Muslim conquest of Sicily.

By the way, thanks for sharing your parents' ethnic background. I was actually very close the first time I looked at your mom' results but changed my mind after looking at my own. I thought mixed Northern Euro with a southern element, which is very similar to French Canadian. You can see that we are very similar still, although my mom is more northern than your French Canadian side.

Last edited by Dimanto; 4th January 2018 at 08:17 PM.
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  #28  
Old 4th January 2018, 09:49 PM
JamesBianco JamesBianco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
Yes, I agree that when considering the Mezziogiorno, Sicily is the most diverse of all and has (especially on a individual level) more variation, indeed due to different historical events, although small still measurable and seen when researching genealogy. As for A-DNA tests developed for comparing populations and individuals but also research done on IBD and overal population structure within the Mezziogiorno, reveals that the people of the south who are called Terroni by those from the north, are mostly very similar and not much effected by geneflow from other regions that haven't effected the entirety of what is called the Mezzogiorno. We do see higher North African scores in some Sicilians, which is due to the Muslim conquest of Sicily.

By the way, thanks for sharing your parents' ethnic background. I was actually very close the first time I looked at your mom' results but changed my mind after looking at my own. I thought mixed Northern Euro with a southern element, which is very similar to French Canadian. You can see that we are very similar still, although my mom is more northern than your French Canadian side.
I just remembered that on Gedmatch My maternal grandmother (the Sicilian) had two first cousins and one niece test with FTDNA so using Lazarus (where you make a Gedmatch file for all the matching segments a group of people share) I made a kit for my mother and these cousins with just the DNA they share. I ran it through Eurogenes K13 and these are the results: (While my grandmother more closely resembles Italians than any other group, she has strong genetic ties to Spanish, Greek and Jewish populations.)

Kit LX312431 (my Sicilian ancestry)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 28.89
2 West_Med 25.32
3 East_Med 24.19
4 West_Asian 15.23
5 Baltic 6.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 7.86
2 Italian_Abruzzo 9.35
3 North_Italian 10.21
4 West_Sicilian 10.34
5 Central_Greek 13.23
6 South_Italian 13.56
7 Greek_Thessaly 13.85
8 East_Sicilian 14.07
9 Spanish_Andalucia 16.4
10 Spanish_Extremadura 16.79
11 Portuguese 17.51
12 Spanish_Murcia 17.55
13 Spanish_Valencia 17.86
14 Ashkenazi 17.94
15 Spanish_Cataluna 18.61
16 Bulgarian 18.78
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 18.82
18 Spanish_Galicia 18.98
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 19.16
20 Sephardic_Jewish 19.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.5% Spanish_Valencia + 33.5% Armenian @ 4.67
2 68.5% Spanish_Andalucia + 31.5% Armenian @ 4.84
3 62.5% Spanish_Aragon + 37.5% Armenian @ 5.09
4 68.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 31.2% Assyrian @ 5.31
5 80.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.6% French_Basque @ 5.4
6 69.5% Spanish_Andalucia + 30.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.47
7 62.8% Spanish_Aragon + 37.2% Assyrian @ 5.6
8 65.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 34.6% Armenian @ 5.62
9 71.7% South_Italian + 28.3% French_Basque @ 5.66
10 66.9% Spanish_Valencia + 33.1% Assyrian @ 5.68
11 52.3% French_Basque + 47.7% Assyrian @ 5.69
12 67.6% Spanish_Valencia + 32.4% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.73
13 63.5% Spanish_Aragon + 36.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.8
14 67.2% Spanish_Murcia + 32.8% Armenian @ 5.81
15 80.2% North_Italian + 19.8% Armenian @ 5.86
16 67.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.89
17 65.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 34.2% Armenian @ 5.95
18 74% Italian_Abruzzo + 26% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.09
19 62.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 37.2% Armenian @ 6.1
20 65.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 34.3% Assyrian @ 6.1

Last edited by JamesBianco; 4th January 2018 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 5th January 2018, 01:47 PM
Dimanto Dimanto is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBianco View Post
I just remembered that on Gedmatch My maternal grandmother (the Sicilian) had two first cousins and one niece test with FTDNA so using Lazarus (where you make a Gedmatch file for all the matching segments a group of people share) I made a kit for my mother and these cousins with just the DNA they share. I ran it through Eurogenes K13 and these are the results: (While my grandmother more closely resembles Italians than any other group, she has strong genetic ties to Spanish, Greek and Jewish populations.)

Kit LX312431 (my Sicilian ancestry)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 28.89
2 West_Med 25.32
3 East_Med 24.19
4 West_Asian 15.23
5 Baltic 6.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 7.86
2 Italian_Abruzzo 9.35
3 North_Italian 10.21
4 West_Sicilian 10.34
5 Central_Greek 13.23
6 South_Italian 13.56
7 Greek_Thessaly 13.85
8 East_Sicilian 14.07
9 Spanish_Andalucia 16.4
10 Spanish_Extremadura 16.79
11 Portuguese 17.51
12 Spanish_Murcia 17.55
13 Spanish_Valencia 17.86
14 Ashkenazi 17.94
15 Spanish_Cataluna 18.61
16 Bulgarian 18.78
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 18.82
18 Spanish_Galicia 18.98
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 19.16
20 Sephardic_Jewish 19.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.5% Spanish_Valencia + 33.5% Armenian @ 4.67
2 68.5% Spanish_Andalucia + 31.5% Armenian @ 4.84
3 62.5% Spanish_Aragon + 37.5% Armenian @ 5.09
4 68.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 31.2% Assyrian @ 5.31
5 80.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.6% French_Basque @ 5.4
6 69.5% Spanish_Andalucia + 30.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.47
7 62.8% Spanish_Aragon + 37.2% Assyrian @ 5.6
8 65.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 34.6% Armenian @ 5.62
9 71.7% South_Italian + 28.3% French_Basque @ 5.66
10 66.9% Spanish_Valencia + 33.1% Assyrian @ 5.68
11 52.3% French_Basque + 47.7% Assyrian @ 5.69
12 67.6% Spanish_Valencia + 32.4% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.73
13 63.5% Spanish_Aragon + 36.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.8
14 67.2% Spanish_Murcia + 32.8% Armenian @ 5.81
15 80.2% North_Italian + 19.8% Armenian @ 5.86
16 67.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.89
17 65.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 34.2% Armenian @ 5.95
18 74% Italian_Abruzzo + 26% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.09
19 62.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 37.2% Armenian @ 6.1
20 65.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 34.3% Assyrian @ 6.1
If it played out well, she's definitely significantly more shifted to the north than 99% of Southern Italians/Sicilians, similar to North Greeks, Albanians, Central Italians/Tuscans. Through GEDmatch' calculators it's hard to distinguish Southern Italians, Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews, because they score very similar percentages and also plot next to each other on a PCA. Maybe the J-Test could give you some more insight in this; 23andme's AC is also pretty good in estimating Jewish ancestry. If the Jewish ancestor is not too far back, you should also get tons of Jewish matches due to the fact Jews are as endagomous as it can get.

Last edited by Dimanto; 5th January 2018 at 01:59 PM.
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