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  #1  
Old 26th January 2014, 11:57 AM
Miss Blue Miss Blue is offline
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70.32% Western European, 29.68% Middle Eastern

Western European 70.32% (French, Orcadian, Spanish) +/- 9.73%
Middle Eastern 29.68% (Palestinian, Iranian, Jewish, Adygei, Druze) +/- 9.73%

My FTDNA results.

My father is half Sicilian, half Italian - most likely all southern Italian. My mother is a mixture of northern and western European ancestry, including English, Irish, Scottish, German, Dutch, and Norwegian. There's "rumor" of a Native American ancestor on her side, but neither I nor anyone in my family has ever been able to find a paper trail, so I'm discounting it until there's proof.

I suspected the high Middle Eastern result was due to the southern Italian and Sicilian ancestry, so I ran numerous admixture analyses on GEDMatch. I'm not sure which one to use, but I've included a few screenshots.

So you'll all have to pardon my ignorance, but I'm a little confused. I notice that across tests I have a decent percentage of "West Asian," which would be the Caucasus region, correct? Is this common in Italian or any other European groups?

I also noticed small hits in Amerindian and sub-Saharan using Eurogenes. When you get small percentages and only on some of your chromosomes, is that more likely to indicate a distant ancestor or nothing at all? I'm not sure how to interpret it.

Thank you all so much for humoring me. I just received my results a few days ago and I have more information than I know what to do with. And I've read through so many websites about DNA that I'm a little overwhelmed.
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  #2  
Old 26th January 2014, 12:25 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
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You wrote, "I suspected the high Middle Eastern result was due to the southern Italian and Sicilian ancestry."

You're correct about that. I'm administrator of the Sicily Project, which has about 170 members with Population Finder results.

The clear trend is that anyone with half northern European and half Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry gets about 25-30% Middle Eastern, sometimes approaching 40%. Those with full Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry get over 50% Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish). In a significant number of cases, they get 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish).

This is most likely due to the thousands of years long connection that Sicilians and southern Italians have to Middle Eastern populations. I summarized this a few days ago in a post in another thread - http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...00&postcount=8. (The issue of high Middle Eastern in Population Finder comes up all the time. You can find numerous threads which discuss this.) I don't think most of those with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry who get a high Middle Eastern percentage have any recent ancestry of that sort. It's more of an ancient component in their ancestry.

Be careful about reading too much into the percentages of the various components you get in the calculators at gedmatch. They're actually more informative than Population Finder is (at least until a promised update later this year), but the percentages you're seeing reflect ancient components. For instance, "West Asian" corresponds to the Caucasus, but is a component found in both Sicilians/southern Italians and Middle Eastern people and is an ancient, not recent, component.

It looks like you've used the chromosome painting option for the calculators. That's fine and interesting, but I prefer to look at the overall analysis, not by chromosome. You get that by choosing "Admixture Proportions (with link to Oracle)" on the gedmatch Admix Utilities page. If you want to get an idea of more recent ancestry, click on the "Oracle" option once you've gotten the percentages for the ancient components. That will give you an estimate of your more recent ancestry, with a single populaton and then 2, 3 and 4 population mixes. Also, it looks like you didn't try the Dodecad calculator. Try it. I find that Dodecad gives the most reliable and informative analysis for those with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry.

Last edited by MMaddi; 26th January 2014 at 12:28 PM.
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  #3  
Old 26th January 2014, 04:32 PM
Miss Blue Miss Blue is offline
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MMaddi,

Thank you so much. You have no idea how helpful that was. I ran the Dodecad calculator with Oracle. Sure enough, these results make more sense with what I know about my recent genealogy.

Dodecad V3 Oracle results:
The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Kit F321644

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 37.17
2 Mediterranean 29.73
3 West_Asian 14.08
4 East_European 9.04
5 Southwest_Asian 6.91
6 Northwest_African 1.13
7 South_Asian 0.86
8 Palaeo_African 0.59
9 Neo_African 0.47

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan (Henn) 10.83
2 Tuscan (Xing) 10.93
3 TSI (HapMap) 11.24
4 Slovenian (Xing) 14.81
5 N_Italian (Dodecad) 14.95
6 French (HGDP) 16.5
7 French (Dodecad) 16.73
8 O_Italian (Dodecad) 16.76
9 CEU (HapMap) 17.56
10 Hungarians (Behar) 17.85
11 N._European (Xing) 18.03
12 Portuguese (Dodecad) 18.83
13 German (Dodecad) 19
14 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 19.14
15 Romanians_14 (Behar) 19.38
16 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 19.38
17 Orcadian (HGDP) 19.72
18 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.93
19 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 20.05
20 Tuscan (HGDP) 20.3
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  #4  
Old 26th January 2014, 07:51 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
Western European 70.32% (French, Orcadian, Spanish) +/- 9.73%
Middle Eastern 29.68% (Palestinian, Iranian, Jewish, Adygei, Druze) +/- 9.73%

My FTDNA results.

My father is half Sicilian, half Italian - most likely all southern Italian. My mother is a mixture of northern and western European ancestry, including English, Irish, Scottish, German, Dutch, and Norwegian. There's "rumor" of a Native American ancestor on her side, but neither I nor anyone in my family has ever been able to find a paper trail, so I'm discounting it until there's proof.

I suspected the high Middle Eastern result was due to the southern Italian and Sicilian ancestry, so I ran numerous admixture analyses on GEDMatch. I'm not sure which one to use, but I've included a few screenshots.

So you'll all have to pardon my ignorance, but I'm a little confused. I notice that across tests I have a decent percentage of "West Asian," which would be the Caucasus region, correct? Is this common in Italian or any other European groups?

I also noticed small hits in Amerindian and sub-Saharan using Eurogenes. When you get small percentages and only on some of your chromosomes, is that more likely to indicate a distant ancestor or nothing at all? I'm not sure how to interpret it.

Thank you all so much for humoring me. I just received my results a few days ago and I have more information than I know what to do with. And I've read through so many websites about DNA that I'm a little overwhelmed.
The West Asian component is high in the Caucasus. However it is present in Levantine groups, Phoenicians Jews etc. These groups have a larger West Asian component than a Southwest Asian (Arabic) component.
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  #5  
Old 27th January 2014, 11:49 AM
Miss Blue Miss Blue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
The West Asian component is high in the Caucasus. However it is present in Levantine groups, Phoenicians Jews etc. These groups have a larger West Asian component than a Southwest Asian (Arabic) component.
Thank you! That's very interesting.
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  #6  
Old 27th January 2014, 12:55 PM
Zaru Zaru is offline
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Mike...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
You wrote, "I suspected the high Middle Eastern result was due to the southern Italian and Sicilian ancestry."

You're correct about that. I'm administrator of the Sicily Project, which has about 170 members with Population Finder results.

The clear trend is that anyone with half northern European and half Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry gets about 25-30% Middle Eastern, sometimes approaching 40%. Those with full Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry get over 50% Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish). In a significant number of cases, they get 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish).

This is most likely due to the thousands of years long connection that Sicilians and southern Italians have to Middle Eastern populations. I summarized this a few days ago in a post in another thread - http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...00&postcount=8. (The issue of high Middle Eastern in Population Finder comes up all the time. You can find numerous threads which discuss this.) I don't think most of those with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry who get a high Middle Eastern percentage have any recent ancestry of that sort. It's more of an ancient component in their ancestry.

Be careful about reading too much into the percentages of the various components you get in the calculators at gedmatch. They're actually more informative than Population Finder is (at least until a promised update later this year), but the percentages you're seeing reflect ancient components. For instance, "West Asian" corresponds to the Caucasus, but is a component found in both Sicilians/southern Italians and Middle Eastern people and is an ancient, not recent, component.

It looks like you've used the chromosome painting option for the calculators. That's fine and interesting, but I prefer to look at the overall analysis, not by chromosome. You get that by choosing "Admixture Proportions (with link to Oracle)" on the gedmatch Admix Utilities page. If you want to get an idea of more recent ancestry, click on the "Oracle" option once you've gotten the percentages for the ancient components. That will give you an estimate of your more recent ancestry, with a single populaton and then 2, 3 and 4 population mixes. Also, it looks like you didn't try the Dodecad calculator. Try it. I find that Dodecad gives the most reliable and informative analysis for those with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry.
I am curious to know about the percentages of Northern European/Baltic in the admixtures of your participants in the Sicily Project. We know about the Norman presence and the distribution of I1 in Sicily. Has this been reflected in the admix results as well? Perhaps we can get a sense of how far reaching autosomal dna truly is.
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  #7  
Old 27th January 2014, 06:30 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaru View Post
I am curious to know about the percentages of Northern European/Baltic in the admixtures of your participants in the Sicily Project. We know about the Norman presence and the distribution of I1 in Sicily. Has this been reflected in the admix results as well? Perhaps we can get a sense of how far reaching autosomal dna truly is.
I can certainly take a look at those Sicily Project members with PF results who are fully Sicilian/southern Italian and see what's specified for their non-Middle Eastern percentages, i.e., their European percentages.

Frankly, based on my knowledge of Sicilian history, I'm doubtful that the Normans had much genetic impact on the Sicilian population. From what I've read, at least in the early phases, only several hundred Norman knights were fighting the Muslims to take Sicily. It took almost 30 years to recover the entire island. And once the Normans were fully in charge, they allowed the local governing bodies to be run by the Sicilians, both Greek- and Arab- speaking. In fact, for several decades of Norman rule, some leading positions in the royal court in Palermo were held by Sicilian Greek- and Arab- speakers. The final piece of evidence is that the Normans brought Lombards from northern Italy to colonize some of the eastern Sicilian towns, whose people were predominantly Eastern rite Christians; the Lombards were Latin rite Christians, oriented to Rome, not Constantinople. If Norman men were numerous enough already in Sicily, why would they go to northern Italy to find Rome-oriented Christians to bring in?

Take a look at the results page for the Sicily Project website at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results. There's a breakdown of the percentages by yDNA haplogroup for the Sicilian lines among project members, 450 results. The combined percentage for I1 and R1a1 is just 6.9%. Add in some of the R1b1a2 lines and you may get to, at most, 10% for Norman ancestry.

But I will look at the PF results and report on that tomorrow.
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  #8  
Old 27th January 2014, 08:11 PM
Zaru Zaru is offline
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Interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
I can certainly take a look at those Sicily Project members with PF results who are fully Sicilian/southern Italian and see what's specified for their non-Middle Eastern percentages, i.e., their European percentages.

Frankly, based on my knowledge of Sicilian history, I'm doubtful that the Normans had much genetic impact on the Sicilian population. From what I've read, at least in the early phases, only several hundred Norman knights were fighting the Muslims to take Sicily. It took almost 30 years to recover the entire island. And once the Normans were fully in charge, they allowed the local governing bodies to be run by the Sicilians, both Greek- and Arab- speaking. In fact, for several decades of Norman rule, some leading positions in the royal court in Palermo were held by Sicilian Greek- and Arab- speakers. The final piece of evidence is that the Normans brought Lombards from northern Italy to colonize some of the eastern Sicilian towns, whose people were predominantly Eastern rite Christians; the Lombards were Latin rite Christians, oriented to Rome, not Constantinople. If Norman men were numerous enough already in Sicily, why would they go to northern Italy to find Rome-oriented Christians to bring in?

Take a look at the results page for the Sicily Project website at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results. There's a breakdown of the percentages by yDNA haplogroup for the Sicilian lines among project members, 450 results. The combined percentage for I1 and R1a1 is just 6.9%. Add in some of the R1b1a2 lines and you may get to, at most, 10% for Norman ancestry.

But I will look at the PF results and report on that tomorrow.
This is interesting to me, only because I was born there (Palermo), and know of the cultural footprint of the Normans there. From my perspective, I would speculate that the Norman influence (cultural) was larger than perhaps the genetic one.

For example, Il Cattedrale di Monreale is one of the finest examples of Norman religious architecture anywhere. There is also a wide culinary influence including some viticulture in the region. The world famous Cuticchio, a puppet master, models his puppets and puppet shows after the Normans and Saracens, and the tale of Roland. I used to see him as a child, and I took my girls back to see the show a few years ago.

But under further consideration, many of the "influences" that appear to be Norman in nature, could possibly be Bourbon. The Monzu (the Sicilian Chef) comes to mind.

I'll be anxious to see what you discover.
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  #9  
Old 13th April 2014, 03:42 AM
Mokurai Mokurai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaru View Post
This is interesting to me, only because I was born there (Palermo), and know of the cultural footprint of the Normans there. From my perspective, I would speculate that the Norman influence (cultural) was larger than perhaps the genetic one.

For example, Il Cattedrale di Monreale is one of the finest examples of Norman religious architecture anywhere. There is also a wide culinary influence including some viticulture in the region. The world famous Cuticchio, a puppet master, models his puppets and puppet shows after the Normans and Saracens, and the tale of Roland. I used to see him as a child, and I took my girls back to see the show a few years ago.

But under further consideration, many of the "influences" that appear to be Norman in nature, could possibly be Bourbon. The Monzu (the Sicilian Chef) comes to mind.

I'll be anxious to see what you discover.
Hi Zaru,

So will I be interested in this as I did read about it some time ago. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....bliography.htm has some of the books I read and so am not sure which one it was. From memory the Normans moved down into lower Italy and took over there; then in about 1042AD they took over Scilly. They kicked the Muslims out but held on to those Muslims that were in Government Offices, in Palermo. Scilly became a Norman Kingdom for two centuries until the last remaining Heir was female. She then married Frederick of Germany and that was basically the end of Norman reign. I think, originally, the guy who was King was Roger. Look at 1096-99AD and we find Bohemian who took his nephew with him and headed over to the Holy Lands in the First Crusade Steven Runciman (1966). A History of the Crusades Volume 1. Cambridge Press. Almost there and he called into Antioch. He decide to stay there and make it his own Kingdom, etc.

Oh my Norman stock are at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....a/iresults.htm There are also two in our J Group. The R1b and R1a are on another Results page.


Haere,


Warren.
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  #10  
Old 30th April 2014, 04:01 PM
Germanica Germanica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
You wrote, "I suspected the high Middle Eastern result was due to the southern Italian and Sicilian ancestry."

You're correct about that. I'm administrator of the Sicily Project, which has about 170 members with Population Finder results.

The clear trend is that anyone with half northern European and half Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry gets about 25-30% Middle Eastern, sometimes approaching 40%. Those with full Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry get over 50% Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish). In a significant number of cases, they get 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish).

This is most likely due to the thousands of years long connection that Sicilians and southern Italians have to Middle Eastern populations. I summarized this a few days ago in a post in another thread - http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...00&postcount=8. (The issue of high Middle Eastern in Population Finder comes up all the time. You can find numerous threads which discuss this.) I don't think most of those with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry who get a high Middle Eastern percentage have any recent ancestry of that sort. It's more of an ancient component in their ancestry.

Be careful about reading too much into the percentages of the various components you get in the calculators at gedmatch. They're actually more informative than Population Finder is (at least until a promised update later this year), but the percentages you're seeing reflect ancient components. For instance, "West Asian" corresponds to the Caucasus, but is a component found in both Sicilians/southern Italians and Middle Eastern people and is an ancient, not recent, component.

It looks like you've used the chromosome painting option for the calculators. That's fine and interesting, but I prefer to look at the overall analysis, not by chromosome. You get that by choosing "Admixture Proportions (with link to Oracle)" on the gedmatch Admix Utilities page. If you want to get an idea of more recent ancestry, click on the "Oracle" option once you've gotten the percentages for the ancient components. That will give you an estimate of your more recent ancestry, with a single populaton and then 2, 3 and 4 population mixes. Also, it looks like you didn't try the Dodecad calculator. Try it. I find that Dodecad gives the most reliable and informative analysis for those with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry.
Just wanted to thank you for this info, it was also very helpful to me. My background is almost exactly the same as the OP except my father is only half Sicilian/Italian (his mother was half Sicilian, half Italian) and the Sicilians in my tree were actually only in Sicily for about one generation. My Ancestry.com test results said about 31% "Italy/Greece" but then my transfer to FTDNA said 72.07% Western Europe and 27.93% Middle East. Additionally, a lot the Gedmatch admixture proportions were giving me high-ish numbers of West Asia or Middle East which I suspected were related to my Italian roots and now I know that is indeed the case. Fascinating stuff. Here's a spreadsheet of all the different results of my DNA: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=4&output=html - but wow, I totally overlooked the "link to Oracle" option, perhaps because I didn't know what it was. So much more informative, thanks!

Do you have to have taken a yDNA or mtDNA test to join the Sicily Project? I have only taken Ancestry.com's autosomal test.
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