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  #1  
Old 28th January 2017, 06:30 PM
MoberlyDrake MoberlyDrake is offline
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Which Brother Was the Father???

Enoch Hampton had 2 sons, James and Zachariah. One of the 2 was the father of my maternal great-grandfather, but which one??? I have a couple of new test results since the Holiday sale one a Y and one atDNA.

A - my mother - 2nd great-granddaughter of Enoch. (Family Finder)
B - her nephew - 3rd great-grandson of Enoch. (Y-DNA-67 and FF)
C - her 1st cousin - 2nd great-granddaughter of Enoch.(FF)
D - a 2nd great-grandson of Enoch and great-grandson of ZACHARIAH (Y-DNA-67 and FF).
E - a 3rd great-granddaughter of Enoch Hampton, 2nd great-granddaughter of JAMES (FF)

D's Y-DNA results just came in and I was surprised to see a Genetic Distance of 2. Their lists of matches are identical in every way. Everyone who is a GD of 1 on one list is a GD of 1 on the other list, everyone who is a GD of 2 on one list is a GD of 2 on the other list, etc. They differ at:

B: DYS449 - 32
D: DYS449 - 31

B: DYS534 - 14
D: DYS534 - 15

As for atDNA results:

A and D share 93 cM, longest segments 39.36 cM, 13.21 cM, 6.75 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

C and D share 80 cM, longest segments 38.81 cM, 29.43 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

B and D don't match at all on FF.

A and E share 119 cM, longest segments 49.24 cM, 32.86 cM, 8.69 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

C and E share share 37 cM, longest segment 16.53 cM (predicted 4th to remote cousin) Quite a difference between A and E and C and E considering the relationship is the same!)

B and E share 43 cM, longest segment 16.76 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

D and E don't match at all on FF.

Is it possible to say definitely which brother was the father of my great-grandfather, given the Y results especially?
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  #2  
Old 28th January 2017, 06:50 PM
georgian1950 georgian1950 is online now
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What can you tell us about the maternal 2nd great grandmother? Was she married to one of the Hampton boys and you just do not know which one or was this out of wedlock or was she married to one and he died so she married the other?. What marriages did the brothers have?

Jack
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  #3  
Old 28th January 2017, 07:57 PM
MoberlyDrake MoberlyDrake is offline
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She was not married to either Hampton brother. She was married to someone else. So were the 2 brothers.

My great-grandfather was placed in an orphanage 11 Dec 1877. The orphanage records give his age as 5. Don't know if they were guessing or if he or someone else told them that.

My 2nd great-grandmother's next youngest child (presumably her husband's) was born in Feb or Mar 1772, if the 2 sources I have are correct about the year. They disagree about the month. Her husband apparently died in Jul 1872.

So my great-grandfather was probably conceived in 1872 and possibly born more than 9 months after the death of my 2nd great-grandmothers husband. The situation in 1872:

My 2nd great-grandmother was 33.
Her husband was about 45 and knew by May that he didn't have long to live.
They married in 1860 and had 6 children.
James Hampton was 37 and had a wife and at least 4 children and on the 1870 census was the next household after my 2nd great-grandmother's husband's and was a farm laborer, owning no land.
Zachariah Hampton was about 23 or 24, married in May of 1871 and had a son born June 1872. He had been raised by his brother.
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  #4  
Old 28th January 2017, 08:05 PM
MoberlyDrake MoberlyDrake is offline
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Of course, I know who I'd pick based on those circumstances, but can DNA actually prove it???
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  #5  
Old 28th January 2017, 08:33 PM
georgian1950 georgian1950 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
Of course, I know who I'd pick based on those circumstances, but can DNA actually prove it???
I'd say so. Are you able to create the trees of descendants for both James and Zachariah? If so, I would filter kits that you have for the descendants of the 2nd great grandmother and the unknown father with the ancestral names from the trees. You will probably find a cousin in the Family Finder matches who will point to either James or Zachariah. It is a tedious process, but I have used it to find more distant matches than 2nd great grandparents. When you go to triangulate matching segments to confirm that the match is what you think it is, set the FF Chromosome Browser to 1 cM. FF uses so many SNP's for a short segment that it is extremely unlikely to be false match.

I had a third great grandmother with a brickwall. I figured out that the maternal line was Wilson and identified some segments indicating that. By trying out every Wilson tree I could find, I finally was able to determine her great grandfather. Backfilling the tree supported the original finding.

Jack
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Old 29th January 2017, 04:38 PM
travers travers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
Enoch Hampton had 2 sons, James and Zachariah. One of the 2 was the father of my maternal great-grandfather, but which one??? I have a couple of new test results since the Holiday sale one a Y and one atDNA.

A - my mother - 2nd great-granddaughter of Enoch. (Family Finder)
B - her nephew - 3rd great-grandson of Enoch. (Y-DNA-67 and FF)
C - her 1st cousin - 2nd great-granddaughter of Enoch.(FF)
D - a 2nd great-grandson of Enoch and great-grandson of ZACHARIAH (Y-DNA-67 and FF).
E - a 3rd great-granddaughter of Enoch Hampton, 2nd great-granddaughter of JAMES (FF)

D's Y-DNA results just came in and I was surprised to see a Genetic Distance of 2. Their lists of matches are identical in every way. Everyone who is a GD of 1 on one list is a GD of 1 on the other list, everyone who is a GD of 2 on one list is a GD of 2 on the other list, etc. They differ at:

B: DYS449 - 32
D: DYS449 - 31

B: DYS534 - 14
D: DYS534 - 15

As for atDNA results:

A and D share 93 cM, longest segments 39.36 cM, 13.21 cM, 6.75 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

C and D share 80 cM, longest segments 38.81 cM, 29.43 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

B and D don't match at all on FF.

A and E share 119 cM, longest segments 49.24 cM, 32.86 cM, 8.69 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

C and E share share 37 cM, longest segment 16.53 cM (predicted 4th to remote cousin) Quite a difference between A and E and C and E considering the relationship is the same!)

B and E share 43 cM, longest segment 16.76 cM (predicted 2nd to 4th cousin)

D and E don't match at all on FF.

Is it possible to say definitely which brother was the father of my great-grandfather, given the Y results especially?
I don't think the Y-DNA results will tell you one way or the other as far as differentiating between 2 brothers. I would say based on autosomal and the fact James was a neighbor he would be the most likely. What makes it more difficult to be 100% confident is these would all be 1/2 relationships not full. Personally I would try to find a closer descendant of James if you can. I'm sure you've seen there is a person on Findagrave who claims to be a granddaughter to James
(their grandfather was born in 1835? maybe they have their generations mixed up), if true I would see if they would DNA test for you to see if they match your mother and cousin as a 2nd cousin (she would actually be a 1/2 1st cousin once removed which would be the genetic equivalent to 2nd cousins if your family is from James). If your family is from Zachariah your mother and her 1st cousin would match this woman more in the 3rd cousin range.

Last edited by travers; 29th January 2017 at 04:43 PM.
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  #7  
Old 29th January 2017, 05:31 PM
MoberlyDrake MoberlyDrake is offline
mtDNA: T2b5 | Y-DNA: J-M172
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by travers View Post
I don't think the Y-DNA results will tell you one way or the other as far as differentiating between 2 brothers. I would say based on autosomal and the fact James was a neighbor he would be the most likely. What makes it more difficult to be 100% confident is these would all be 1/2 relationships not full. Personally I would try to find a closer descendant of James if you can. I'm sure you've seen there is a person on Findagrave who claims to be a granddaughter to James
(their grandfather was born in 1835? maybe they have their generations mixed up), if true I would see if they would DNA test for you to see if they match your mother and cousin as a 2nd cousin (she would actually be a 1/2 1st cousin once removed which would be the genetic equivalent to 2nd cousins if your family is from James). If your family is from Zachariah your mother and her 1st cousin would match this woman more in the 3rd cousin range.
The person on Find A Grave is actually one of the people whose results I discuss above. And yes, she has her relationship confused on Find A Grave. I hadn't noticed that, though I saw that she had posted a note there. Off by two generations and on the wrong side of the family. I, too, would like to get a hold of the book of poetry he published on the off-chance it had a biographical sketch. The sample poem published in the newspaper was so poor that my sister thinks not a single copy can have survived. Everyone would have trashed it.

Last edited by MoberlyDrake; 29th January 2017 at 05:38 PM.
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  #8  
Old 29th January 2017, 07:42 PM
Dabney Carr Dabney Carr is offline
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I made a sort of chart showing what the expected average of centimorgans shared between each person in each of two cases the maternal great grandfather was sired by James or Zachariah followed by the actual shared centimorgans in parentheses.

-----

E = James descendant D = Zach descendant


If by Zach: A & D ( 2nd cousins) – expected avg. match: 106.25 cM (93 cM)
If by Zach: C & D ( 2nd cousins) – expected avg. match: 106.25 cM (80 cM)
If by Zach: B & D ( 2C 1xR) – expected avg. match: 53.13 cM ( DNM - 0 cM)

If by Zach: A & E (3rd cousins 1xR) – expected avg. match: 26.56 cM (119 cM)
If by Zach: C & E (3rd cousins 1xR) – expected avg. match: 26.56 cM (37 cM)
If by Zach: B & E (4th Cousins) – expected avg. match: 13.28 cM (43 cM)


If by James: A & E ( 2nd cousins 1xR) – expected avg. match: 53.13 cM (119 cM)
If by James: C & E ( 2nd cousins 1xR) – expected avg. match: 53.13 cM (37 cM)
If by James: B & E ( 3rd Cousins) – expected avg. match: 26.56 cM (43 cM)

If by James: A & D (3rd cousins) – expected avg. match: 53.13 cM (93 cM)
If by James: C & D (3rd cousins) – expected avg. match: 53.13 cM (80 Cm)
If by James: B & D (3C 1xR) – expected avg. match: 26.56 cM ( DNM - 0 cM)

-----------

A few things stand out. First of all, if the ancestor were Zachariah, then A & E would be expected to share only 26.56 cM, but A & E share 119 cM, more than 4x greater than expected.

Also, if Zach were the father, then B & D would be half 2nd cousins once removed and expected to share 53 cM, but they share none. 2nd Cousins 1xR is the equivalent to 3rd cousins. They say there is a greater than 90% chance 3rd cousins will match. Conversely, there is a less than 10% chance 3rd cousins will not match. If you go by that statistic then the odds of Zach being the father is less than 10%.

While not conclusive, this does point to James being the father. Moreover based on what you said about their ages and kids, James would be more likely to be in a stale marriage and have that "7-year itch". Zacharia on the other hand was young and likely recently married, and thus a lot less likely to stray, IMO.

Again, you can't be 100% certain, but the odds are in favor of the father being James.
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