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  #1  
Old 22nd January 2011, 11:22 AM
fan fan is offline
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Can paternal cousins have different haplogroups?

Hi,

I am looking for answers to the following queries:

(1) can two biologically related 2nd or even 4th or 5th paternal cousins share different Haplogroups such as O1a and O2a? If not, under what kind of circumstances would such an occurence take place?

(2) can two paternal cousins share different Haplogroups when their common ancestor lived more than 900 years ago? What if they were of the same surname (family name) and come from the same village which their ancestors lived for the past 900 years or longer?

Fan
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Old 22nd January 2011, 01:40 PM
vinnie vinnie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fan View Post
Hi,

I am looking for answers to the following queries:

(1) can two biologically related 2nd or even 4th or 5th paternal cousins share different Haplogroups such as O1a and O2a? If not, under what kind of circumstances would such an occurence take place?

(2) can two paternal cousins share different Haplogroups when their common ancestor lived more than 900 years ago? What if they were of the same surname (family name) and come from the same village which their ancestors lived for the past 900 years or longer?

Fan
If two men are known to be paternal cousins within a historical time frame (including 900 years ago) - that they did in fact descend from a common male ancestor - then, no, they can't belong to different haplogroups or different subclades of the same haplogroup. Surnames, unfortunately, are not always reliable; perhaps there was an adoption involved, or the presumed father was not in fact the biological father. This is called an NPE - a "non paternal event".

Last edited by vinnie; 22nd January 2011 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 05:29 PM
fan fan is offline
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Thank you. I guess so.

Sometimes I just wonder whether tribal groups were purely of a single Haplogroup - bearing in mind ancient migration issues. I guess that the Haplogroup that is most frequent and common amongst that tribe would be deemed to be the original Haplogroup of that tribe. When surnames started, all people of that tribe could have ascribed to that one surname too, undifferentiated by differing Haplogroups (probably not even known to them at all).
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Old 22nd January 2011, 11:49 PM
cacio cacio is offline
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Very likely the most common haplogroup could be the one of the founder of the family. However, I guess it depends on the family. I'm not familiar with chinese history. Chinese have relatively few family names. Perhaps it's possible that some of these names were the names, say, of kings or the like, and then over time more and more people, unrelated, got the name as well. I was told that this is what happened in Korea, where the names Kim and Lee are enormously popular. They were the names of royal dinasties, but the name is common now simply because many families assumed that name later.

cacio
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Old 23rd January 2011, 07:27 AM
Jim Barrett Jim Barrett is online now
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Question How and When

Fan,

The simple answer, no, you have already been given, but there are several things we need to know before giving you the correct answer.

The Halpotree is a living, growing thing. Have the people been tested by the same company, within the same time frame and to the same degree?

I have people in one of my projects who were originally report to be Haplogroup K and now they are Haplogroup T.
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Old 24th January 2011, 04:44 AM
fan fan is offline
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Thanks for the advice.

Will look into it.

Fan
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Old 24th January 2011, 06:46 AM
vinnie vinnie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Barrett View Post
Fan,

The simple answer, no, you have already been given, but there are several things we need to know before giving you the correct answer.
Given what Fan posted, which did not include questions about testing/reporting error, differences between how various companies report results, or changes in ISOGG haplotree nomenclature, our responses were perfectly reasonable.

Last edited by vinnie; 24th January 2011 at 06:49 AM.
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  #8  
Old 24th January 2011, 02:53 PM
Zaru Zaru is offline
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Jim gave a valid response.

When analyzing DNA, the concepts are distinct from the math, but the work in concert. This makes all claims on the board reasonable.

I am waiting for the moment that family members carry a different snp. I can remember when str mutations were the litmus test and it was thought that family members had to be an exact match. We know that this is not the case any longer. We cannot leave it out of the realm of possibility at this point as we are constantly making adjustments to accommodate new evidence. At this point I am doubtful that this will/can occur, but I would not be surprised if one day it did.

Cheers.
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Old 25th January 2011, 07:08 AM
Jim Barrett Jim Barrett is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie View Post
Given what Fan posted, which did not include questions about testing/reporting error, differences between how various companies report results, or changes in ISOGG haplotree nomenclature, our responses were perfectly reasonable.
Fan needed to know that there was more involved than the information he provided. FTDNA tells me I am a R1b1b2 and 23andMe tells me I am a R1b1b2a1a2f.

I think that Fan needs to know that just because two people (or the same person in my case) think they have different Haplogroups they can be very closely related.
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Old 25th January 2011, 07:50 AM
fan fan is offline
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Thanks again.

All the information posted have been very helpful to me.

The tests were done with FTDNA and about the same time (Batch 394 & 395).
FTDNA could not determine 2 of the 3 samples' SNP to date (the known sample with a confirmed SNP needs further testing for more SNPs / subclades). However, matches provided by FTDNA appeared to be all clustering at O2 Haplogroup whilst mine is O1a.

However when I placed all samples analyzed at YHRD Worldwide.org over the last weekend and compared the samples with the supplementary table of an article on the paternal affilinity between Austronesians and Daic populations, these samples have close matches with O1a samples.

Henceworth, my conclusion is that the samples in FTDNA may not be comprehensive.

I am just guessing here.

Fan
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