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  #1  
Old 24th December 2017, 11:51 PM
csb461 csb461 is offline
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Question re Jewish subpopulations specificity on gedmatch eurogenes K15/K13

Hello. I am very new to all of this but already fascinated. I tried my best to get a handle on the concepts behind the eurogenes calculator but I am still left with a question too difficult to answer myself and would truly appreciate any input those on this forum who are far far more knowledgable and experienced could provide.

At this time I still have FTDNA FamilyFinder, Y-111, and mito sequence pending. But a few days ago my ancestryDNA results returned and to no surprise they came back as 98% European Jewish. Minor surprise was subcategory of European Jewish isolated to Western and Central Europe, but no Central and Eastern under their European Jewish ethnicity. Somewhat more of a surprise was my remaining 2% trace came back Middle East as I was expecting more eastern or northern european admixture over a couple millenia. I uploaded the raw data to Gedmatch.

To best of my knowledge and confidence I trace my great grandparental lines to births in modern day Czech Rep, Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland. A few additional lines were Prussian, though further east in Sroda which is now Poland. Persecution events brought these lines together outside of Europe. I think of these locations as Central Europe bordering on Eastern Europe origins but my DNA results seem a touch off from that.

My ashkenaz value on the JTest is 28.63. My East Euro on JTest is zero. My Middle East, East Medit, and Atlantic are each a touch higher than the benchmark AJ, and AJ gives me a distance of 5.03 which it seems on other boards or threads is high and I've read a good fit is something at or below 2.
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 ASHKENAZI 28.63
2 EAST_MED 21.8
3 MIDDLE_EASTERN 11.02
4 WEST_MED 10.91
5 ATLANTIC 9.25
6 WEST_ASIAN 7.08
7 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 6
8 SOUTH_BALTIC 3.73
9 EAST_ASIAN 1.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 AJ 5.03
2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 21.32
3 GR 23.17
4 Tuscan 25.26

So I wanted to see how I can get closer to 2 and have run different simulations in Gedmatch. Below I will post my K13 and K15 runs and what I want to ask this board for guidance is whether the K15 which includes a Sephardi benchmark population in my Oracle simulations which provide a better result than Ashkenazi or the K13 run with 50/50 Ashkenaz/Sephardi split truly holds any weight? The 50/50 splits in both K13 and K15 tests give a distance closer to 3 which is better than the 5 of AJ alone on the Jtest. Should I now be wondering if there may be some admixture of a different Jewish line like Sephardi in the past?

I am now even more curious what my Y and mitochondria haplotypes will be.

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: Alexandr.Burnashev@gmail.com
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.00
2 Atlantic 14.19
3 West_Asian 14.16
4 West_Med 13.90
5 Red_Sea 9.22
6 North_Sea 7.69
7 Baltic 4.69
8 Eastern_Euro 2.73
9 Southeast_Asian 1.81
10 Northeast_African 1.36


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.082613
2 East_Sicilian @ 6.248787
3 Ashkenazi @ 6.732410
4 South_Italian @ 6.826517
5 Italian_Jewish @ 7.032344
6 Central_Greek @ 7.570797
7 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.750294
8 West_Sicilian @ 8.817043
9 Algerian_Jewish @ 8.973692
10 Tunisian_Jewish @ 10.589510
11 Greek @ 13.108372
12 Libyan_Jewish @ 13.789458
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 14.493756
14 Cyprian @ 15.083038
15 Tuscan @ 15.597232
16 Lebanese_Muslim @ 17.347811
17 Syrian @ 17.686260
18 Turkish @ 19.650120
19 Jordanian @ 20.179581
20 Samaritan @ 21.298662

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.182693


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +25% Palestinian +25% West_Sicilian @ 2.663827


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Armenian + Greek + Spanish_Aragon + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.273498
2 Central_Greek + Lebanese_Muslim + Palestinian + Southwest_French @ 2.514587
3 Central_Greek + Lebanese_Muslim + Palestinian + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.515036
4 Armenian + Greek + Southwest_French + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.540987
5 Central_Greek + Lebanese_Muslim + Palestinian + Spanish_Valencia @ 2.548195
6 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Muslim + Southwest_French @ 2.568781
7 Central_Greek + Lebanese_Muslim + Palestinian + Spanish_Aragon @ 2.579588
8 Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Palestinian + Spanish_Aragon @ 2.606201
9 South_Italian + Southwest_French + Turkish + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.610408
10 Italian_Abruzzo + Jordanian + Lebanese_Christian + Southwest_French @ 2.611615
11 Armenian + Southwest_French + West_Sicilian + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.612882
12 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Muslim + Spanish_Aragon @ 2.623532
13 Italian_Abruzzo + Kurdish_Jewish + Palestinian + Southwest_French @ 2.627849
14 Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo + Palestinian + West_Sicilian @ 2.663827
15 Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Muslim + Palestinian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.670709
16 Armenian + Italian_Abruzzo + Southwest_French + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.672036
17 Armenian + Greek + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.686834
18 Central_Greek + Spanish_Valencia + Turkish + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.689407
19 Central_Greek + Spanish_Aragon + Turkish + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.691845
20 Georgian_Jewish + Greek + Spanish_Aragon + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.698941


Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: Alexandr.Burnashev@gmail.com
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 36.87
2 West_Med 17.98
3 North_Atlantic 14.70
4 West_Asian 12.06
5 Baltic 7.63
6 Red_Sea 7.10
7 East_Asian 1.93


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi @ 4.439488
2 Italian_Jewish @ 6.495186
3 Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.741993
4 Algerian_Jewish @ 7.464577
5 South_Italian @ 8.499388
6 East_Sicilian @ 8.527454
7 Tunisian_Jewish @ 9.364212
8 Central_Greek @ 10.102328
9 Libyan_Jewish @ 10.420899
10 West_Sicilian @ 11.825421
11 Italian_Abruzzo @ 12.994884
12 Cyprian @ 14.120226
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 15.834550
14 Lebanese_Muslim @ 17.715532
15 Syrian @ 18.804926
16 Tuscan @ 19.200918
17 Samaritan @ 19.808804
18 Palestinian @ 19.895731
19 Jordanian @ 20.167992
20 Lebanese_Druze @ 20.537146

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.020734


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Lebanese_Druze +25% West_Sicilian @ 2.269591


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + West_Sicilian @ 2.269591
2 Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.538449
3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + Tuscan @ 2.546722
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Tuscan @ 2.591067
5 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + West_Sicilian @ 2.601276
6 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.660892
7 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.675749
8 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Tuscan @ 2.688844
9 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.692382
10 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian @ 2.694303
11 Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian @ 2.711336
12 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Romanian @ 2.716001
13 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Serbian @ 2.796239
14 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Tuscan @ 2.807167
15 Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.811659
16 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Samaritan + West_Sicilian @ 2.867522
17 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Cyprian @ 2.927599
18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.931331
19 Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.959541
20 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.968272

Thank you so much for any help.
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  #2  
Old 25th December 2017, 01:50 AM
khazaria khazaria is offline
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Posts: 474
For East European DNA affinities, you will want to look at your Eurogenes K36 scores for Central European, East-Central European, East European, Fennoscandian, and Volga-Ural. You do have suggestions of having some SOUTH_BALTIC by Eurogenes' Jtest and that stands for DNA that is very common in the Poland-Lithuania region. K36 will show the full amount of DNA from that region without any of it being subsumed by an Ashkenazic category.

You certainly could have some Sephardic ancestors. The first step should be to look in the lower reaches of your Family Finder match list for any people who are members of such communities as: Mexican, Costa Rican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Portuguese, Spanish, Syrian Jewish, Turkish Jewish, Moroccan Jewish, and similar.
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  #3  
Old 25th December 2017, 01:54 AM
khazaria khazaria is offline
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Along those lines, another observation I have is that your 7.63% Baltic estimate in Eurogenes K13 reflects East European DNA. So you certainly do have some.
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  #4  
Old 25th December 2017, 09:41 PM
csb461 csb461 is offline
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Eurogenes K36 run

Thank you so very much for that advice. Below is my K36 run. A little in the East Central Euro, some trace in the Eastern Euro and very trace in the Fennoscandian. So that would be 2.21% Eastern European consumed by the AJ category in the JTest? Would this change the conclusion of the K15 oracle?

Yes I would have expected my return to have been nearly as solid Polish region Ashkenaz as the test could get since about 50% of my great grandparents would have been born in areas that are modern day Poland. The others in Belarus, Russia, and Moravia. I was just surprised when the K15 oracles were giving me those leans toward Sephardi population and wondered if any of my ancestral lines were mid or late diaspora emigrations from a mediterranean population into the classic 'Ashkenazi' geographic region.

I am still waiting for this company's FamilyFinder run to post and hope the interface will allow more fine delving such as that into my matches to look for Spanish and Latin surnames. I have some 13680 cousin matches on ancestry and it's overwhelming to the point where looking for anything or anyone is like a needle in a haystack. A good number of the entries are also initials or handles to hide their identity and they don't have a tree or locked access to their tree. Nonetheless I have been looking for surnames like that and finding a very scattered few and starring them. Still I'm not sure if those are just people with Spanish surnames and an Ashkenaz married into their line.


Eurogenes K36 Admixture Proportions


This utility uses the Eurogenes K36 model, created by Davidski (Polako). Questions and comments about this model
should be directed to him at his Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project blog.


Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 7.08
Armenian 5.16
Basque 1.30
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian 0.24
East_Balkan 4.09
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 1.59
East_Med 13.66
Eastern_Euro 0.41
Fennoscandian 0.11
French 7.50
Iberian 11.60
Indo-Chinese 0.54
Italian 14.80
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 15.73
North_African 4.39
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 1.02
North_Sea 1.27
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 5.76
West_Med 3.74
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  #5  
Old 25th December 2017, 09:48 PM
csb461 csb461 is offline
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Brief point

I guess taking a step back a more simple question is whether my results with the slight further tilt toward mediterranean and middle east are even something that would be considered uncharacteristic for an Ashkenaz? Or could it still be in the expected zone so to say?
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  #6  
Old 26th December 2017, 03:08 AM
khazaria khazaria is offline
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Posts: 474
csb461, the elements you're showing are typical of Ashkenazim and the amounts are within the normal ranges of variation.

Your amount of Slavic DNA (actually not 2.21% but only 2.11% adding up the Central Euro + East Central Euro + Eastern Euro + Fennoscandian + Volga-Ural elements) is quite low in comparison to some other Ashkenazim such as my parents and I. My total of those 5 elements is 8.86%. But there are many other Ashkenazim who have low Slavic DNA amounts.

Another difference is you have a small amount of East Asian DNA (0.24% East Asian + 0.54% Indo-Chinese + 0% South Chinese in Eurogenes K36; 1.59% in Jtest) whereas I have none.

You do have more Middle Eastern DNA in Eurogenes K36 than I do:
Arabian: 7.08% for you vs. 3.87% for me
Armenian: 5.16% for you vs. 5.67% for me
East Mediterranean: 13.66% for you vs. 10.64% for me
Near Eastern: 15.73% for you vs. 15.42% for me
West Caucasian: 5.76% for you vs. 4.23% for me

I have only 2.18% North African compared to your 4.39%.

My South Central Asian score of 2.50% is not that common among Ashkenazim.

I just realized that you tested so recently that your AncestryDNA chip is the new v2 chip rather than the v1 chip. Because v2 is only partially compatible with Family Finder, you will not be able to view your lower-level matches within Family Finder, e.g. Latin Americans, but such matches will still be findable inside GEDmatch.
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  #7  
Old 26th December 2017, 11:59 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csb461 View Post
I guess taking a step back a more simple question is whether my results with the slight further tilt toward mediterranean and middle east are even something that would be considered uncharacteristic for an Ashkenaz? Or could it still be in the expected zone so to say?
Agree with Khazaria. It should be noted that although there is a common Ashkenazi pattern, there is great variation around the center. For example, some calculators show individual Ashkenazis to be closer to Sicilians than to other Ashkenazis.
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