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Y-DNA Haplogroups & SNPs Advanced Users can talk about SNP based tests such as single SNP testing by Sanger sequencing, Geno 2.0 chip based testing, and next-generation sequencing tests like BIG Y.

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Old 14th June 2018, 04:03 PM
cjm cjm is offline
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Is it possible to change subclades?

Is it possible for your Y-line ancestor to be a part of a subclade but then a mutation in one of his descendants throws a number off by one digit, taking him over or under the range it takes to be positive for that subclade?
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:13 PM
prairielad prairielad is offline
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Are you referring to STR Genetic Distance numbers or Haplogroup?
one has no bearing on the other
STRs are Short Tandem Repeats in the yDNA (repeats of small segments of DNA)
Haplogroups and subclades are based on an single SNP value, a single Base in DNA (sometimes more then one)
one will be positive for all parent branches of subclades.

ie)For halogroup R

Someone that is R1a1a1b1a1a1a1a1 (Short hand R-Y2905)will also test positive for

R-YP254
R-YP256
R-L260
R-Y2604
R-PF7521
R-M458
R-PF6155
R-Z282
R-Z283
R-Z645
R-M417
R-M198
R-M459
R1a
R1
R-Y482
R

Anyone can have an extra mutation as mutations can happen at anytime, but I do not think it is classified as a new subclade until it is determined to be passed onto multiple lines.

One also has to realize that many haplogroup assignments are only partial, older parent branch. One has to do Full yDNA SNP testing to determine ones final subclade placement.

FTDNA's YDNA STR testing and matching only predicts a very old parent branch, additional SNP testing needed to determine final subclade placement.

Last edited by prairielad; 14th June 2018 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 14th June 2018, 11:33 PM
cjm cjm is offline
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So I guess a better example....let's say your ancestor's haplo fall into subclade R1B>L159.2>DF13+>Z255+L159.2

But then somewhere down the line, one of his descendants loses an SNP point and they are at the low end of the scale on that value. All of a sudden, everyone down the line now falls into haplogroup subclade R1b+ > L21+ > DF13+ > Z255+ > Z16437+

So I'm wondering if that kind of scenario is possible or happens?
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Old 15th June 2018, 02:19 AM
rivergirl rivergirl is offline
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I seem to recall that L159.2 was discovered to be a little too unreliable as a SNP, a bit like L144.

Also I'm sure L159.2 was discovered before the discovery of DF13. Sometimes this mean the tree has to be reworked.
I don't know if L159.2 is considered a stable SNP these day.
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Old 15th June 2018, 05:46 AM
spruithean spruithean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjm View Post
So I guess a better example....let's say your ancestor's haplo fall into subclade R1B>L159.2>DF13+>Z255+L159.2

But then somewhere down the line, one of his descendants loses an SNP point and they are at the low end of the scale on that value. All of a sudden, everyone down the line now falls into haplogroup subclade R1b+ > L21+ > DF13+ > Z255+ > Z16437+

So I'm wondering if that kind of scenario is possible or happens?
No, as the individual who is positive for L159.2 descends from the first man with the derived (+) L159.2, he does not descend from the man who first had the Z16437 derived (+) value.

Last edited by spruithean; 15th June 2018 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 15th June 2018, 09:27 AM
cjm cjm is offline
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Quote:
No, as the individual who is positive for L159.2 descends from the first man with the derived (+) L159.2, he does not descend from the man who first had the Z16437 derived (+) value.
Ok, so what happens when eventually, one of the descendants of that subclade is born with a number out of range from other members in that subclade? Is a new group technically created?
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Old 15th June 2018, 10:00 AM
spruithean spruithean is offline
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Originally Posted by cjm View Post
Ok, so what happens when eventually, one of the descendants of that subclade is born with a number out of range from other members in that subclade? Is a new group technically created?
Perhaps you are confusing STRs and SNPs? SNPs define subclades while STRs are associated with haplotypes (the string of numbers you see 13-22-13-10-16-17, etc).

Say the first man to belong to the haplogroup I-A13421 had several descendants who had their own defining SNPs for their specific lineage.

For example I-A13241 branches off into I-Y57817 and I-Y3647. Both these individuals are positive for the A13241 mutation, while they each have their own defining mutations of Y57817 and Y3647. Mr. Y57817 is not positive for Y3647 and vice versa.

From here I-Y57817 branches off into I-A7144 and I-A18501, while I-Y3647 branches off into I-A14097 (which branches into I-A14094), I-L234 and I-A13248. While all these lineages descend from a common individual (A13241) they are not related for 100s if not thousands of years (if SNP dating calculations are correct).

So say generations from now a descendant of yours has a defining familial SNP he will indeed form his own subclade of your haplogroup, but he will still be descended from you because he will be positive for the SNPs you are also positive for. A good example is that of Haplogroup R. All members of R1b and R1a and even R2 descend from a common ancestor Haplogroup R, defined by the mutation M207. Mr. R-M207 had many descendants who all had their own lineage defining SNPs (R1b, R1a, R2, etc). Members of R1b are postive for the R1b defining mutations (SNPs) and also positive for the original M207 mutation as are members of the R1a haplogroup, they are positive for their own branch defining R1a SNPs as well as the original M207 mutation, because they all descend from the lineage that first carried R-M207.

The same goes for members of haplogroup I1 and I2, all descend from the first I-M170 individual, and I should add that ALL members of both large haplogroups I-M170 and R-M207 descend from the first man with the haplogroup called IJK who is believed to have lived 47,000 to 60,000 years ago.

Last edited by spruithean; 15th June 2018 at 10:06 AM.
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