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  #1  
Old 6th June 2014, 10:52 AM
Illumina Illumina is offline
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My grandmother's results - Before and After

My grandma's results have significantly changed since My Origins was launched.

In the old PF she was:

European 55.77% (+/-1.29%)
Native American 11.12% (+/-2.82%)
Middle East (North African)33.11% (+/-1.53%)

Now, in My Origins:

74% European: 63% North Mediterranean Basis, 10% European Coastal Islands, 1% North Circumpolar

10% New World: Bering Expansion

7% African: 6% Niger-Congo Genesis, 1% East African Pastoralists

6% Middle Eastern: 4% Eastern Afroasiatic, 2% North African Coastlands

3% East Asian: Asian Northeast

From what we knew about my grandma's ancestry she was 3/4 Portuguese and 1/4 Spanish (Jewish). Her ancestors left the Old World in the early 1800s. For this reason, we suspected she could also have some Native American makeup since it was not unusual to see settlers/immigrants engaging with Native American women.

Grandma always told us that her maternal grandmother's ancestors were Jews from Cadiz, Spain. And this story can be confirmed when we take a look at her FF list. 1/4 of her DNA relatives are Maghrebim, mainly, from Morocco (except for 3 Ashkenazim). Perhaps, this could explain my grandma's 33.11% Middle East (North African). We all know that there was always a constant Jewish migration from North Africa to the Iberian Peninsula and vice versa.

In grandma's case I believe PF was far more accurate than My Origins. Her Middle Eastern percentage was reduced from 33.11% to only 6% (2% North African Costlands). Besides that, with My Origins she showed up being 7% African. How come PF was not able to detect it before since Madenka and Yoruba seem to be the main reference populations for the new "Niger-Congo Genesis"?

What's your opinion according to what I've just mentioned above? Any insight will be welcome.
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  #2  
Old 6th June 2014, 10:35 PM
mixedkid mixedkid is offline
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At first glance, the initial results from Population Finder and those from myOrigins seem to fit your grandmother's family tradition of her ancestry.

Looking again at the second set of results though: The 1% North Circumpolar? My guess is that is from a Norman settling in Spain or Portugal who had some Finnish ancestry. I think the new African results have some basis in Portugal's colonial slave trade and not just the fact that your grandmother's family has some historical connection to North Africa. The African results reflect both west an east Africa, site of Portugal's former colonies and places where slaves originated. There could have been a back-migration to Portugal of ancestors with mixed ancestry. The 10% Bering Expansion? Definitely evidence of Native American ancestry -- and once again, back migration to Portugal of ancestors of mixed ancestry. The 6% Middle Eastern probably can be explained by both Jewish and Berber ancestors.
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  #3  
Old 7th June 2014, 10:56 AM
Armando Armando is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedkid View Post
At first glance, the initial results from Population Finder and those from myOrigins seem to fit your grandmother's family tradition of her ancestry.

Looking again at the second set of results though: The 1% North Circumpolar? My guess is that is from a Norman settling in Spain or Portugal who had some Finnish ancestry. I think the new African results have some basis in Portugal's colonial slave trade and not just the fact that your grandmother's family has some historical connection to North Africa. The African results reflect both west an east Africa, site of Portugal's former colonies and places where slaves originated. There could have been a back-migration to Portugal of ancestors with mixed ancestry. The 10% Bering Expansion? Definitely evidence of Native American ancestry -- and once again, back migration to Portugal of ancestors of mixed ancestry. The 6% Middle Eastern probably can be explained by both Jewish and Berber ancestors.
Results have to be compared with other people with similar ancestry and with people with dissimilar ancestry in order to understand the results. We need to be careful not to jump to conclusions and take every component of the Ethnic Makeup literally.

The North Circumpolar, New World: Bering Expansion, and East Asian: Asian Northeast is common among Latin Americans due to our Amerindian ancestry. It was especially strong in this person that seems to be full-blooded Amerindian from Puebla, Mexico. http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...2&postcount=81

Maya, Pima and Columbian reference populations were not included in myOrigins. They only used Karitiana and Surui as reference population for Native Americans.

I did a comparison of various other Latin Americans using various calculators:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f4wiwm6rhs...omparison.xlsx

The more documented Amerindian ancestry they had the better the chances of higher North Circumpolar, New World: Bering Expansion, and East Asian: Asian Northeast. Those with more documented European ancestry had less of those components and North Circumpolar would be missing. Therefore the North Circumpolar is not from a Norman settling in Spain or Portugal who had some Finnish ancestry

Most of the Latin Americans with documented mulato ancestors have close to what Illumina has for the African component. Most of the Latin Americans with no documented mulato ancestry have much less of the African component. So you are correct that Illumina could very likely have had mulato ancestors, descended from slaves, although some of the African could also be from other Ancestry.

We need people that are 100% Portuguese and people that are 100% Spanish to post their myOrigins results in order to be able to see much Middle Eastern they show to have. That way we have control groups to compare to.
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  #4  
Old 7th June 2014, 12:22 PM
mixedkid mixedkid is offline
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The Norman Influence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armando View Post
Results have to be compared with other people with similar ancestry and with people with dissimilar ancestry in order to understand the results. We need to be careful not to jump to conclusions and take every component of the Ethnic Makeup literally.

The North Circumpolar, New World: Bering Expansion, and East Asian: Asian Northeast is common among Latin Americans due to our Amerindian ancestry. It was especially strong in this person that seems to be full-blooded Amerindian from Puebla, Mexico. http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...2&postcount=81


Maya, Pima and Columbian reference populations were not included in myOrigins. They only used Karitiana and Surui as reference population for Native Americans.

I did a comparison of various other Latin Americans using various calculators:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f4wiwm6rhs...omparison.xlsx

The more documented Amerindian ancestry they had the better the chances of higher North Circumpolar, New World: Bering Expansion, and East Asian: Asian Northeast. Those with more documented European ancestry had less of those components and North Circumpolar would be missing. Therefore the North Circumpolar is not from a Norman settling in Spain or Portugal who had some Finnish ancestry

Most of the Latin Americans with documented mulato ancestors have close to what Illumina has for the African component. Most of the Latin Americans with no documented mulato ancestry have much less of the African component. So you are correct that Illumina could very likely have had mulato ancestors, descended from slaves, although some of the African could also be from other Ancestry.

We need people that are 100% Portuguese and people that are 100% Spanish to post their myOrigins results in order to be able to see much Middle Eastern they show to have. That way we have control groups to compare to.
I think we must always consider the total history of Iberia (and southern Italy) including the influence of the Normans. Otherwise, we fall into the ethnocentric trap of being very selective of which ancestors we will include or exclude from our genetic mix. Modern cultural history does not necessarily equal genetic reality.
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  #5  
Old 7th June 2014, 01:28 PM
Armando Armando is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedkid View Post
I think we must always consider the total history of Iberia (and southern Italy) including the influence of the Normans. Otherwise, we fall into the ethnocentric trap of being very selective of which ancestors we will include or exclude from our genetic mix. Modern cultural history does not necessarily equal genetic reality.
I have taken in consideration the total history of Iberia as well as how biogeographical analysis works. I know that when certain components show up more in certain groups, and much less in others, then the group with the highest amount is most likely the one that contributed said component. Having comparisons of different groups allows one to reach a proper conclusion of why something happens. Being able to see the same results over and over allows one to state the situation is reproducible and can be stated with a large degree of certainty which group caused the results.

I have already provided the reproducible data that Latin Americans with higher amounts of Amerindian ancestry have a much higher amount of North Circumpolar, especially the person from Puebla that is almost 100% Amerindian and Latin Americans with higher amounts of European ancestry have much less North Circumpolar. This can be reproduced with every random 10 Latin Americans with documented ancestry to the 17th century on most of the lines. Those with mostly European ancestry will have less North Circumpolar. Those with more Amerindian ancestry will have more North Circumpolar.

If she had a Norman ancestor with North Circumpolar he would have to have been from the past 200 years due to how autosomal DNA is inherited. You are going too far back in history to be able to include a Norman as the cause. If the Normans had contributed as much as you say it did then the data I have provided you with would have shown it amongst the people with higher amounts of European ancestry. That is looking at results objectively. That is reality without an ethnocentric trap.
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  #6  
Old 7th June 2014, 03:02 PM
Illumina Illumina is offline
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Thank you Mixedkid and Armando for your insights.

Actually, the only intriguing thing for me is the new 7% African (6% Niger-Congo Genesis, 1% East African Pastoralists) in my grandmother's results since My Origins was released. It seems strange that PF was not able to detect any West African component in her composition before.

Unfortunately, I couldn't go far with grandma's paper trail. None of her ancestors found in the Census between 1820-1890 was classified as mulatto or black.

I didn't mention anything about her 1% North Circumpolar because I thought it was not really relevant. Anyways, grandma has some DNA relatives on GEDmatch that seem to be full blooded Finns.
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  #7  
Old 7th June 2014, 11:46 PM
PDHOTLEN PDHOTLEN is offline
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I wish I had relatives to test for DNA. I'm all alone. Anyway, I'm still shocked, shocked (remember "Casablanca") that "My Origins' gives me 20% Mediterranean. Maybe I'm the secret grandson of a Sicilian Mafia Don. Or maybe it came from mainland Italy. I also have a couple apparent Hispanic matches on FF. I am really a mutt! Actually, I have a nephew (wherever he now is) with some Native American in his DNA. His father, my sister's first husband, said his own grandmother was full blooded Seminole.
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  #8  
Old 8th June 2014, 04:48 PM
JMash JMash is offline
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“Middle East (North African)33.11% (+/-1.53%)”

“Actually, the only intriguing thing for me is the new 7% African (6% Niger-Congo Genesis, 1% East African Pastoralists) in my grandmother's results since My Origins was released. It seems strange that PF was not able to detect any West African component in her composition before.”

PF did detect the West African component. North Africans are partially Sub-Saharan. Which North African group(s) in particular did it list? Bedouins are around 9% African and Moroccans around 21% Sub-Saharan, for instance, according to Eurogenes K13 analysis.

Here are the K13 averages for anyone who would like to see the same with their own results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WUUY4Z0E#gid=0

If PF for one person said for instance: 25% Jewish, 25% Bedouin, 25% Yoruba, and 25% Finland then using EG K13 That individual would genetically/chromosomally be about 27.43% Sub-Saharan using BGA components. Jews, Finns, and Bedouins all are at least in small part Sub-Saharan using K13 (Noise or not is irrelevant to a calculator). Therefore it is using modern populations (Which are mixed to varying degrees or at least populations that statistically fit multiple components of those available) to tell you what is on your chromosomes. Despite EGK13 and PF being different they are mostly the same at the basic level (Continental analysis).

There are many different ways of saying the same thing and there are several reasons, to a calculator, why someone may be 10% Sub-Saharan for instance. Your great grandmother may have been 100% sub-Saharan. You may be 100% Bedouin, or 50% Moroccan, etc. That is why it is not a perfect science. A Finnish individual is not 100% European in BGA components speak and neither is/are most other groups’ one thing. Hope this helps.

Last edited by JMash; 8th June 2014 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Spacing
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  #9  
Old 8th June 2014, 08:56 PM
PDHOTLEN PDHOTLEN is offline
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I guess those numbers on that spread sheet are percentages. Anyway, I see that both Austrian (my official maternal grandfather) and French have a significant amount of West Mediterranean. So maybe that unexpected 20% Med. is spread out among my parents. In my earlier PF results I had 5.58% Middle-Eastern (or whatever it was called). With "My Origins" I no longer have Mid-East, but replaced with that 20% North-Med.
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  #10  
Old 8th June 2014, 09:31 PM
Armando Armando is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illumina View Post
Thank you Mixedkid and Armando for your insights.

Actually, the only intriguing thing for me is the new 7% African (6% Niger-Congo Genesis, 1% East African Pastoralists) in my grandmother's results since My Origins was released. It seems strange that PF was not able to detect any West African component in her composition before.

Unfortunately, I couldn't go far with grandma's paper trail. None of her ancestors found in the Census between 1820-1890 was classified as mulatto or black.
PF was not a good tool for the most Latin Americans because it didn't properly separate our documented ancestry. I have seen dozens of results from unrelated people that have very well documented ancestry so I was able to see what matched with reality.

Most of the Latin Americans with mulatto ancestors are labeled as that prior to 1800 because it was around that time that the Latin American countries gained independence from Spain and the term mulato was forbidden after 1800. If I knew which Latin American country she was from I could be more specific about the year. I could also be more specific how she compares to certain other Latin American countries.

Even though the mulato term was ceased to be used there were a lot of people that still had significant amounts of African DNA so when two people married they passed down about 50% of the two people combined and therefore the DNA was still inherited at a significant level. This is very different from only having a single ancestor.

There is a comparison of Latin Americans in a published study that includes African, Amerindian, and European percentages at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/11...caribbean.html

You can see a better picture at http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0Iom7wG_y5...03925.g001.png

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illumina View Post
I didn't mention anything about her 1% North Circumpolar because I thought it was not really relevant. Anyways, grandma has some DNA relatives on GEDmatch that seem to be full blooded Finns.
It is important that people don't associate North Circumpolar with the wrong group by doing a proper analysis. There needs to be confirmation that those people are full blooded Finns and not false matches. I have already shown that the North Circumpolar shows up in people that have Native American/Amerindian as your grandmother does.
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