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Old 10th February 2014, 05:06 PM
girlperson1 girlperson1 is offline
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Talking A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3543.html


The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

(I hate to say I told you so....)
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Old 10th February 2014, 08:23 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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I read somewhere that Doron Behar is preparing a response to this paper since he reached a very different conclusion in an earlier paper (In my own case of the 'minor' line of J1c, I had been suggesting the conclusion of the Richard's paper)
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Old 11th February 2014, 08:37 AM
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Rebekah Canada Rebekah Canada is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
I read somewhere that Doron Behar is preparing a response to this paper since he reached a very different conclusion in an earlier paper (In my own case of the 'minor' line of J1c, I had been suggesting the conclusion of the Richard's paper)
Hello,

Do you have a link to where you read that?
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Old 11th February 2014, 08:51 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by Rebekah Canada View Post
Hello,

Do you have a link to where you read that?
Sorry, I don't remember where I saw the mention of Behar. The Richard's paper indicates that Behar reviewed the paper before it was published.
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Old 11th February 2014, 02:43 PM
JohnG JohnG is offline
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Some years go at a AAAS meeting there was a presentation on the genetics of Diasporas, at least those where male traders lead the way. They used the 16th(?) century movement of Chinese traders to Malaysia and Indonesia and the Jewish populations in North Africa as examples. In these case the first traders took local wives and had children. The first traders had clout and prestige, so the next wave of traders treated their daughters as the wives of first choice. That led to a local population largely descended from the wives of the first traders. I believe the story was that in each of the colonies there was a different fount of MtDNA.
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Old 13th February 2014, 12:48 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
Sorry, I don't remember where I saw the mention of Behar. The Richard's paper indicates that Behar reviewed the paper before it was published.
In the Oct 8 2013 edition of the NY Times, Behar is quoted as saying he did not agree with Richard's findings. He did not give specific details but said that his position would be published in a scientific paper. Behar was mentioned in an article by Nicholas Wade on the Richard's paper.

Last edited by josh w.; 13th February 2014 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 13th February 2014, 01:26 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
In the Oct 8 2013 edition of the NY Times, Behar is quoted as saying he did not agree with Richard's findings. He did not give specific details but said that his position would be published in a scientific paper. Behar was mentioned in an article by Nicholas Wade on the Richard's paper.
The empirical conclusion is of significant import with respect to Jewish history. The traditional view is that Jews were exiled en masse at the time of the destruction of the second temple. However Schlomo Sand has argued that much of the Jewish migration was voluntary (e.g. for economic reasons) and that the exile was mainly from Jerusalem and not all of Israel. There is some support for the traditional view. For example there are reports of Jewish slaves in Sicily. On the other hand, Richard's position would appear to be consistent with voluntary migration.
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Old 13th February 2014, 01:57 PM
girlperson1 girlperson1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
In the Oct 8 2013 edition of the NY Times, Behar is quoted as saying he did not agree with Richard's findings. He did not give specific details but said that his position would be published in a scientific paper. Behar was mentioned in an article by Nicholas Wade on the Richard's paper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/sc...inds.html?_r=0
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Old 13th February 2014, 05:22 PM
sammy321 sammy321 is offline
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I just watched a 2 part documentary called Exile: A Myth Unearthed. A film by Ilan Ziv. The National Film Board of Canada was part of the production. What I am led to understand is not all Jews left the land. About 70 miles from Jerusalem in the ancient city of Sepphoris archeologists are discovering new evidence to a population that flourished.
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Old 13th February 2014, 06:38 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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I just watched a 2 part documentary called Exile: A Myth Unearthed. A film by Ilan Ziv. The National Film Board of Canada was part of the production. What I am led to understand is not all Jews left the land. About 70 miles from Jerusalem in the ancient city of Sepphoris archeologists are discovering new evidence to a population that flourished.
I hope my own view is clear. I don't know if Richard's conclusion is correct and am awaiting Behar's response. I don't think the exile story is simply a myth. Jewish migration to Rome was probably voluntary and involuntary, e.g. Romans imported slaves. The film you mention agrees with points raised by Sand.
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