Go Back   Family Tree DNA Forums > Universal Lineage Testing (Autosomal DNA) > Family Finder Advanced Topics

Family Finder Advanced Topics Advanced discussion about Family Tree DNA's Family Finder Product.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 9th August 2013, 11:50 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 44
Thank you for the further replies.

As mentioned in my first message, mtdna haplogroup is very old HV. Apparently existed in Italy pre-farming, possibly migrating to Middle East (HV4a2a subclade is closest based on mutations).
Not having a single mtdna match on FTDNA or mitosearch and no Jewish FF matches led me to believe that rather than Jewish, it's maybe Assyrian or Jordanian. And even that is only based on 2-3 people apparently anywhere that have that subclade.

Paper trail on mother's side is completely Italian/catholic, but only goes back to the mid 1800s or so. Started this research in the first place based more on appearances of some family members throughout the family tree. Italian plus some middle-eastern, possibly "Jewish" is the best I can describe it. Not that uncommon in Southern Italy/Sicily, even Sardinia. Or Greece for that matter. Plus a couple of family names that showed up as possibly but not exclusively Jewish-Italian on one list out of many on the net. Whether the 5+% Ashkenazi is based on 1492 expulsions, jews in Sicily 2 millennia ago or just noise I have no idea, lol.

Thanks again for contributing to this amateur's thread.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 9th August 2013, 12:15 PM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 631
Jews have been in Southern Italy for 2000+ years. At one point Calabria had a huge Jewish population. Genetic studies have shown that of non-Jewish populations, Southern Italian DNA closest resembles Jewish DNA.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 9th August 2013, 12:16 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz85 View Post
26% ME is a good indication of recent ME Ancestry. Since you are Southern Italian. Jewish is probably the population that fits. My ydna origin is Egypt and my mtdna is most likely Yemen, neither of them show up on my admixture. However Autosomal does not reach that far back like ydna, and mtdna. So you can't really tie them together.
This subject of Population Finder (PF) giving a high Middle Eastern percentage to someone with significant Sicilian/southern ancestry has come up numerous times. I've posted in various threads about it.

As administrator of the Sicily Project, I have access to the results of about 130 project members with PF results. I've kept a spreadsheet with the various percentages given to each of the members. There are certain very obvious trends.

If someone has full Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry, it's almost certain they will be given at least 50% either Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish). There are 15 members in this category who've actually been given 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish). I checked to see what's the ancestry of those who've been given 20-30% Middle Eastern. There are 18 in that category. All but one have one side with Sicilian ancestry and the other side with northern European ancestry. This matches the original poster's ancestry, so what Nijuurasen was given by PF is not unusual.

I disagree with your conclusion, which I've bolded above, about Nijuurasen's results. I don't think the Middle Eastern percentage represents recent Middle Eastern ancestry of any sort, just as someone with 100% Sicilian ancestry who's given 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish) doesn't have 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents.

What these high percentages of Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern (Jewish) given by PF to those with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry represent is the close affinity of that ethnicity to the general area of the Mediterranean, especially the eastern Mediterranean. The common ancestral population, going back several thousand years, for Sicilians/southern Italians, Greeks, Middle Eastern (including Jews) and North African populations is the first farmers who migrated from the Near East into the Balkans and Sicily/southern Italy. So, what seem to be high percentages of Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern (Jewish) given by PF to those with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry doesn't represent (in most cases) recent ancestry from the Middle East. It represents distant ancestry. This is explained by FTDNA in their FAQ at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/ans...spx?id=22#1177

Also, at this time, the only Italian reference populations they have are Italian (northern Italian), Tuscan (central Italian) and Sardinian; they have no reference population of Sicilians or southern Italians. (The FAQ showing this is at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/ans...spx?id=22#1039 ) Since Sicilians/southern Italians are genetically closer to Middle Eastern/Jewish populations than the Italian reference populations FTDNA uses, PF matches Sicilians more closely to Middle Eastern/Jewish populations, giving those with 100% Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry high percentages of Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish).

Regarding JTest, as NYMark posted, Nijuurasen's 5.57% Ashkenazi in that test is what's to be expected for someone with his/her ancestry. If I remember correctly, most people with significant Italian ancestry get about 5-8% Ashkenazi in JTest.

Finally, looking at Nijuurasen's Oracle results, there are only two mentions of a Middle Eastern population (Assyrian) in the various combinations of estimated ancestry. Assyrian occurs as the 12th and 16th possibilities in the 4 population possibilities.

Note that the Eurogenes Project, which came out with the JTest, does have Sicilians/southern Italians among its reference populations, while FTDNA doesn't. For that reason, I regard Eurogenes Project and also the Dodecad Project results as more accurate than PF for someone with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry. JTest Oracle results for Nijuurasen give almost no indication of recent Middle Eastern ancestry. I would go with that and regard the PF Middle Eastern percentage as merely indicating that deep background ancestry that anyone with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry has.

Last edited by MMaddi; 9th August 2013 at 12:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 9th August 2013, 01:39 PM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
This subject of Population Finder (PF) giving a high Middle Eastern percentage to someone with significant Sicilian/southern ancestry has come up numerous times. I've posted in various threads about it.

As administrator of the Sicily Project, I have access to the results of about 130 project members with PF results. I've kept a spreadsheet with the various percentages given to each of the members. There are certain very obvious trends.

If someone has full Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry, it's almost certain they will be given at least 50% either Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish). There are 15 members in this category who've actually been given 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish). I checked to see what's the ancestry of those who've been given 20-30% Middle Eastern. There are 18 in that category. All but one have one side with Sicilian ancestry and the other side with northern European ancestry. This matches the original poster's ancestry, so what Nijuurasen was given by PF is not unusual.

I disagree with your conclusion, which I've bolded above, about Nijuurasen's results. I don't think the Middle Eastern percentage represents recent Middle Eastern ancestry of any sort, just as someone with 100% Sicilian ancestry who's given 100% Middle Eastern (Jewish) doesn't have 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents.

What these high percentages of Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern (Jewish) given by PF to those with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry represent is the close affinity of that ethnicity to the general area of the Mediterranean, especially the eastern Mediterranean. The common ancestral population, going back several thousand years, for Sicilians/southern Italians, Greeks, Middle Eastern (including Jews) and North African populations is the first farmers who migrated from the Near East into the Balkans and Sicily/southern Italy. So, what seem to be high percentages of Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern (Jewish) given by PF to those with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry doesn't represent (in most cases) recent ancestry from the Middle East. It represents distant ancestry. This is explained by FTDNA in their FAQ at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/ans...spx?id=22#1177

Also, at this time, the only Italian reference populations they have are Italian (northern Italian), Tuscan (central Italian) and Sardinian; they have no reference population of Sicilians or southern Italians. (The FAQ showing this is at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/ans...spx?id=22#1039 ) Since Sicilians/southern Italians are genetically closer to Middle Eastern/Jewish populations than the Italian reference populations FTDNA uses, PF matches Sicilians more closely to Middle Eastern/Jewish populations, giving those with 100% Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry high percentages of Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern (Jewish).

Regarding JTest, as NYMark posted, Nijuurasen's 5.57% Ashkenazi in that test is what's to be expected for someone with his/her ancestry. If I remember correctly, most people with significant Italian ancestry get about 5-8% Ashkenazi in JTest.

Finally, looking at Nijuurasen's Oracle results, there are only two mentions of a Middle Eastern population (Assyrian) in the various combinations of estimated ancestry. Assyrian occurs as the 12th and 16th possibilities in the 4 population possibilities.

Note that the Eurogenes Project, which came out with the JTest, does have Sicilians/southern Italians among its reference populations, while FTDNA doesn't. For that reason, I regard Eurogenes Project and also the Dodecad Project results as more accurate than PF for someone with significant Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry. JTest Oracle results for Nijuurasen give almost no indication of recent Middle Eastern ancestry. I would go with that and regard the PF Middle Eastern percentage as merely indicating that deep background ancestry that anyone with Sicilian/southern Italian ancestry has.


Maddi you are right. I should state that It COULD be a good indication of ME Ancestry. I agree with your statements. I'm roughly 60% Southern Italian/ Sicilian and I show around 24% ME. I'd imagine if I tested my parents they'd be 50%+.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 9th August 2013, 02:09 PM
josh w. josh w. is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
I have not been able to find studies of Mtdna HV subclades among Jews. However, research shows quite high rates of HV among some Sephardic and Mizrachi groups. This might simply be the result of admixture in the 'host' country. As you note, your subclade is found among a number of Middle Eastern non-Jewish groups.
I agree with Mike's conclusion. A study by Behar either did not find or test for HV4a2 in Jewish and Near Eastern populations (There was some HV1 among Turkish Sephardim, Yemenite Jews and Palestinians)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 9th August 2013, 03:10 PM
Tįltos Tįltos is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,166
Nijuurasen my mom is half Arbėresh/Southern Italian. Though I did not test her here, I am sure she would come out very similar to you. I had her tested at 23&me, and when Dr. McDonald was accepting data for further analysis on a regular basis he found no Jewish for her though he had almost half of her chromosome painting painted Middle Eastern. And his first reading for her was fitted with 22% Middle Eastern, and the second reading was none, and he fit her with Cypriot to adjust for her Southern Italian/ Arbėresh.

The calculators on Gedmatch are excellent, try them all for fun, and see which one fits what you know. I personally like Dodecad 7 the best for myself, and it gives me the smallest distance as you can see written in my signature. Keep in mind all these calculators, and what is offered here is trying to fit your DNA best to what samples they have available. MMaddi is correct that the Italian samples they have here are not representative of the people of Sicily or Southern Italy. And that is why the Middle East shows because of much older admixture to those areas from the high East Mediterranean component.

My mom has no Jewish matches at 23&me, though she has one match who reports 4 grandparents to the Palestinian Territory. Not sure about them though as they are a private match.

In my Family Finder matches here, it may interest you to know that I have a match from Turkey who is mtDNA HV. They only tested to the HVR 2 level so I'm not sure if they had FMS if that would designate them anymore than HV. I checked my Mom's matches at the other site, and all the ones who are mtDNA HV are private with nothing listed.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10th August 2013, 10:47 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 44
Thanks for the additional posts, including going to the trouble of combing through results of a Sicilian project and insights into other possibilities. Like Dennis Hopper says in True Romance (when he's schooling/shaming Christopher Walken on the history of the Moors in Sicily) "I find that sh** fascinating..."

Thank you in particular to Tįltos for bringing up the Arbėresh. I was ignorant of the name for ethnic Albanians in Southern Italy. But I recall a recent interview with DeNiro mentioning his part Albanian heritage (he is from Molise). Pacino is apparently also an Arbėresh name (?), and his looks are quite close to what I was expressing earlier about Italian + something undefinable.

Last edited by Nijuurasen; 10th August 2013 at 10:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 14th August 2013, 10:41 PM
Tįltos Tįltos is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nijuurasen View Post
Thanks for the additional posts, including going to the trouble of combing through results of a Sicilian project and insights into other possibilities. Like Dennis Hopper says in True Romance (when he's schooling/shaming Christopher Walken on the history of the Moors in Sicily) "I find that sh** fascinating..."

Thank you in particular to Tįltos for bringing up the Arbėresh. I was ignorant of the name for ethnic Albanians in Southern Italy. But I recall a recent interview with DeNiro mentioning his part Albanian heritage (he is from Molise). Pacino is apparently also an Arbėresh name (?), and his looks are quite close to what I was expressing earlier about Italian + something undefinable.
Your welcome! De Niro is one of my favorites.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 30th August 2013, 12:48 AM
brookes brookes is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 133
Yes my BF's results are not quite in, but his Population Finder came in, and it has him as 97% Middle Eastern/Jewish (9.77% margin of error). He is half Sicilian and half Greek. His 100% Sicilian grandmother was given 80-some odd percent ME/Jewish and the remainder Western European. Can't wait to run his results through Gedmatch!!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 30th August 2013, 09:07 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
FTDNA Customer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 44
Glad to see this thread has still got life in it.

One thing I noticed with Gedmatch's various calculators is that "Jewish" (various incarnations, Iraqi Jew etc.) will show up in a 2-population but not 4-population Oracle breakdown, or at greatly different distances. It also depends on the calculator used (my original results on this thread don't even mention Jewish in the population breakdown). Having said that, other ethnicities and regions show up which I'm certain there's no connection to. I guess this is a result of the distancing algorithms. So much to learn...

And just out of curiousity, does the Southern Italian/Greek/Jewish thing work both ways? i.e. Jewish people get tagged as Southern Italian or Greek for example. Do the haplogroups Jewish people are often associate with not result in that happening?

Finally, when will PF actually be out of Beta?

Apologies for the painfully novice questions!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:31 AM.


Family Tree DNA - World Headquarters

1445 North Loop West, Suite 820
Houston, Texas 77008, USA

Phone: (713) 868-1438 | Fax: (832) 201-7147
Copyright 2001-2010 Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.