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Family Finder Advanced Topics Advanced discussion about Family Tree DNA's Family Finder Product.

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  #1  
Old 8th August 2013, 03:18 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
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Middle East/Jewish Pop. Finder vs. Gedmatch

Hello.

Mother's side of family is Southern Italian. MTDNA is rare HV4a2a, which may have some ancient trace to Middle East (Assyrian, Jordanian). Not a single match on FTDNA (HVR1 and 2) which is quite rare, only 1% of users apparently.

Father's side is very British/Scottish/Celt/German (Prussia) etc. Haplo I1. Lots of matches up to 37 markers I paid for. No mention of Jewish in any comments. Closest matches are 2 steps.

FTDNA Pop. finder came up with following after survey question:

Europe (Western European) French, Orcadian, Spanish 73.87% 10.79%

Middle East Palestinian, Jewish, Adygei, Bedouin South, Druze 26.13% 10.79%

Thought ME component and margin of error was unusually high.

Uploaded to Gedmatch, which is now accepting uploads again. Spat out the below on Jewish JTest (please excuse the length).

I see Assyrian popped up. If anybody can tell me WTF it all indicates and Jewish component I'd be eternally grateful!

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 ATLANTIC 20.38
2 NORTHCENTRAL_EURO 16.94
3 EAST_MED 14.81
4 WEST_MED 14.06
5 WEST_ASIAN 8.06
6 SOUTH_BALTIC 8.06
7 EAST_EURO 7.68
8 ASHKENAZI 5.57
9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 4.44
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 9.330
2 Tuscan @ 12.204
3 PT @ 12.550
4 Serbian @ 13.061
5 FR @ 13.330
6 RO @ 13.654
7 ES @ 14.375
8 AT @ 14.511
9 HU @ 17.622
10 West_&_Central_German @ 17.781

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% IE +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.370
2 50% Orcadian +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.486
3 50% Cornish +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.487
4 50% Scottish +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.738
5 50% GR +50% IE @ 2.847
6 50% GR +50% Scottish @ 2.960
7 50% GR +50% Orcadian @ 3.163
8 50% Cornish +50% GR @ 3.217
9 50% NL +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.764
10 50% English +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.821
3081 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% IE +25% GR +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.136
2 50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian +25% Cornish +25% IE @ 2.191
3 50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian +25% Cornish +25% Scottish @ 2.281
4 50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian +25% Cornish +25% Orcadian @ 2.313
5 50% IE +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.370
6 50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian +25% IE +25% IE @ 2.370
7 50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian +25% IE +25% Orcadian @ 2.385
8 50% Orcadian +25% GR +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.407
9 50% Scottish +25% GR +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.415
10 50% Cornish +25% GR +25% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.444
94317 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Cornish + GR + IE + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.041
2 Cornish + GR + Scottish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.065
3 GR + IE + IE + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.136
4 GR + IE + Scottish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.173
5 Cornish + IE + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.191
6 GR + IE + Orcadian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.229
7 Cornish + GR + Orcadian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.247
8 Cornish + Scottish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.281
9 GR + Orcadian + Scottish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.306
10 Cornish + Orcadian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.313
11 IE + IE + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.370
12 Assyrian + DK + ES + FR @ 2.378
13 IE + Orcadian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.385
14 GR + Orcadian + Orcadian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.407
15 GR + Scottish + Scottish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.415
16 Assyrian + ES + FR + Orcadian @ 2.440
17 Cornish + Cornish + GR + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.444
18 IE + Scottish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.465
19 Orcadian + Orcadian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.486
20 Cornish + Cornish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.487
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  #2  
Old 8th August 2013, 10:33 PM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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26% ME is a good indication of recent ME Ancestry. Since you are Southern Italian. Jewish is probably the population that fits. My ydna origin is Egypt and my mtdna is most likely Yemen, neither of them show up on my admixture. However Autosomal does not reach that far back like ydna, and mtdna. So you can't really tie them together.
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  #3  
Old 8th August 2013, 10:41 PM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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Basically your direct lines origins don't play a factor in your results because Autosomal testing does not reach that far back. However you do most likely have recent ME admixture.
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  #4  
Old 9th August 2013, 01:32 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
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Thanks for the quick reply. Much appreciated.

I guess I still can't understand the difference between Gedmatch's roughly 10% combined Ashkenazi/Mid. East vs. Pop Finder's 26% (though -10% error would be a closer 16%).

Are no Jewish matches of any kind on FTDNA (Y, M, Autosomal) usual if one have some kind of Jewish ancestry? Thought this was the best place in the world to find such matches.

Middle East (Assyrian, Jordanian, Egyptian) I can imagine -- probably very few people from those populations tested.

And what is "recent"?

Thank you!
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  #5  
Old 9th August 2013, 01:51 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
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And may I ask what calculator(s) on Gedmatch should someone like myself (with Southern Italian, like yourself) "listen" to most? You seem to have most of them listed at the bottom of your signature. Also can't find a lot of clear info about the various option buttons (Oracle/4/x, Pct. Calc. Option 1/2.)
Thanks!
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  #6  
Old 9th August 2013, 03:09 AM
Taz85 Taz85 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nijuurasen View Post
And may I ask what calculator(s) on Gedmatch should someone like myself (with Southern Italian, like yourself) "listen" to most? You seem to have most of them listed at the bottom of your signature. Also can't find a lot of clear info about the various option buttons (Oracle/4/x, Pct. Calc. Option 1/2.)
Thanks!
I'd would prefer whichever agrees with my known ancestry.
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  #7  
Old 9th August 2013, 04:48 AM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
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Makes sense. Wrote a longer reply but it hasn't been approved so my shorter reply above appeared first. Basically I wasn't surprised not to have any Mid-East matches on FTDNA due to lack of testing there, but am still surprised not a single Jewish mtdna/ydna/FF match since this is supposed to be the biggest database in the world. FAQ does state problem with Southern Italian admixture though.
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  #8  
Old 9th August 2013, 05:17 AM
NYMark NYMark is offline
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That JTest percentage is not really consistent with having recent Jewish ancestry. It may be a little on the high side for noise, but I have a match (Mixed German and Italian Swiss) who scores 8.09%. She has no known Jewish ancestry and no Jewish matches (I'm half but she matches me on my non-Jewish side.) This is the highest such number I know about.

The other results don't suggest Jewish ancestry either, except as one possibility in PF. If you had significant Jewish admixture, it would likely show up in one of the population approximations. It's possible you have some Jewish ancestry, but if so, it's likely a small percentage. I suspect what you're seeing is just a byproduct of the Southern Italian.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nijuurasen View Post
Makes sense. Wrote a longer reply but it hasn't been approved so my shorter reply above appeared first. Basically I wasn't surprised not to have any Mid-East matches on FTDNA due to lack of testing there, but am still surprised not a single Jewish mtdna/ydna/FF match since this is supposed to be the biggest database in the world. FAQ does state problem with Southern Italian admixture though.
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  #9  
Old 9th August 2013, 11:13 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMark View Post
That JTest percentage is not really consistent with having recent Jewish ancestry. It may be a little on the high side for noise, but I have a match (Mixed German and Italian Swiss) who scores 8.09%. She has no known Jewish ancestry and no Jewish matches (I'm half but she matches me on my non-Jewish side.) This is the highest such number I know about.

The other results don't suggest Jewish ancestry either, except as one possibility in PF. If you had significant Jewish admixture, it would likely show up in one of the population approximations. It's possible you have some Jewish ancestry, but if so, it's likely a small percentage. I suspect what you're seeing is just a byproduct of the Southern Italian.
Yes, a few Ashkenazi autosomal studies have shown a significant southern Italian component. However, southern Italian autosomes may have a number of Middle Eastern sources not limited to Jews. Your best bet may be your Mtdna results. Does you Mtdna subclade give any clues
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  #10  
Old 9th August 2013, 11:34 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
Yes, a few Ashkenazi autosomal studies have shown a significant southern Italian component. However, southern Italian autosomes may have a number of Middle Eastern sources not limited to Jews. Your best bet may be your Mtdna results. Does you Mtdna subclade give any clues
I have not been able to find studies of Mtdna HV subclades among Jews. However, research shows quite high rates of HV among some Sephardic and Mizrachi groups. This might simply be the result of admixture in the 'host' country. As you note, your subclade is found among a number of Middle Eastern non-Jewish groups.
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