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  #41  
Old 10th February 2012, 10:36 AM
mixedkid mixedkid is offline
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One possibility that must be considered by a person who has a family tradition of basic European ancestry: Any Middle Eastern component that comes up in genetic testing could represent a partial Jewish ancestry. For those of us who already have a family tradition of Jewish ancestors in our European branches, that is not difficult to accept or understand. (It is a myth that Jewish/Christian marriages did not take place.) For those who don't have that family tradition (storytelling about Jewish ancestors from generation to generation), it must come as a surprise that some of their ancestors (some fairly recent) might have been Jewish.

As far as I know, Jewish populations existed in every modern European country.

That is not to say that the Middle Eastern component might be explained by other ways. However, Since Jewish people were part of the populations of Europe for thousands of years, and quite frankly, the major Middle Eastern population there, there's a strong possibility that some of the Middle Eastern results popping up in genetic tests is in fact due to Jewish ancestry. Every once and a while, I see a sort of denial of this possibility, not only from everyday posters, but from scientists themselves. It is almost as if European history has been forgotten.

Last edited by mixedkid; 10th February 2012 at 10:39 AM. Reason: changed wording in first sentence
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  #42  
Old 10th February 2012, 10:42 AM
Javelin Javelin is offline
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Not to diminish this point, but it is also entirely possible that the Middle East represents a geographic pull toward the region not attritutable to any single identifiable population. Europe was populated largely from West Asia, so it is much harder to separate Middle East from European than it would be, say, East Asian or Native American. What 90% Orcadian 10% Middle Eastern can mean, though it need not always mean this, is someone who comes from a geographic spot 10% of the way from northern Scotland to the Near East.
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  #43  
Old 10th February 2012, 12:26 PM
emyr emyr is offline
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I was reading earlier on another forum about how geographical pull could be playing a part. I believe one poster on the other forum suggested identifying the center of gravity of each region and drawing a line between them, then moving, for example in my case, 10% on the line from the Western European center of gravity to the Middle East center of gravity. I'm not sure in my case of either scenario: whether I have true Middle East (and potentially Jewish) ancestry or whether the test is simply trying to balance out my admixture.

Either way, I'm okay with it. I certainly don't have a problem with Jewish or Middle Eastern ancestry. I think it is possible that I have Jewish ancestry somewhere along the way. I'm not at all surprised that I have no family stories, etc. associated with this either, as I think many Jewish people who migrated to the Southern US, at least to small communities or rural areas, were more isolated than those who migrated to other parts of the US. Without a larger Jewish community to join, my guess would be that over time, assimilation occurred and there weren't efforts to tell future generations the history and/or traditions. So, no denial here. I'm just wondering where my Hungarian grandmother fits in to the picture. Hoping that my FF results will help explain a little bit.
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  #44  
Old 11th February 2012, 01:25 PM
Javelin Javelin is offline
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I think this is where you want to look at the surnames and family histories of all your matches. If you have recent enough Jewish ancestry to show 10%, you should have some Jewish matches.
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  #45  
Old 11th February 2012, 05:26 PM
emyr emyr is offline
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Well, I can't really tell much yet about my matches, but I did upload my data to GedMatch. The Admixture Proportions predicted by GedMatch for me are:

East European 12.9%
West European 49.2%
Mediterranean 25.4%
Neo African 0.6%
West Asian 6.7%
South Asian 1.1%
Northeast Asian 0.3%
Southeast Asian 0.1%
East African 0.2%
Southwest Asian 2.5%
Northwest African 0.8%
Palaeo African 0.2%

I need to read more about the populations and categories at GedMatch. I submitted my raw data to Dr. McDonald as well.
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  #46  
Old 12th February 2012, 09:16 AM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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I have a question mark in my family tree. There is a 3rd gr-grandfather, whose name was Joseph Frank, also spelled Franck in my late dad's notes. He owned a mill in the town of Aufenau, erroneously indicated to be in Bavaria in my dad's notes. I found a town with that name in the state of Hesse, about 35 miles east-northeast of Franfurt-am-Main. Frank is sometimes a Jewish name, and since he is 1 of 32 3rd-greatparents, he would contribute 3.125% (statistical average) of my genome, assuming a part of his genome actually survived to my generation. In Population Finder I have 4.74% +/- 1.73% Middle Eastern - Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite. So, I'm wondering if this PF result might, at least in part, be coming from him, assuming he was Jewish.
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  #47  
Old 12th February 2012, 10:17 AM
ursus ursus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
I have a question mark in my family tree. There is a 3rd gr-grandfather, whose name was Joseph Frank, also spelled Franck in my late dad's notes. He owned a mill in the town of Aufenau, erroneously indicated to be in Bavaria in my dad's notes. I found a town with that name in the state of Hesse, about 35 miles east-northeast of Franfurt-am-Main. Frank is sometimes a Jewish name, and since he is 1 of 32 3rd-greatparents, he would contribute 3.125% (statistical average) of my genome, assuming a part of his genome actually survived to my generation. In Population Finder I have 4.74% +/- 1.73% Middle Eastern - Palestinian, Adygei, Bedouin, Bedouin South, Druze, Iranian, Jewish, Mozabite. So, I'm wondering if this PF result might, at least in part, be coming from him, assuming he was Jewish.
Aufenau was Bavarian from 1814 to to the mid-1860's.

I don't know when your Joseph Frank lived, but there were no Jews who adopted the name Frank there in 1817. (Source "Die unterfränkischen Judenmatrikelen von 1817" by Dirk Rosenstock, page 228.)
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  #48  
Old 13th February 2012, 05:44 AM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursus View Post
Aufenau was Bavarian from 1814 to to the mid-1860's.

I don't know when your Joseph Frank lived, but there were no Jews who adopted the name Frank there in 1817. (Source "Die unterfränkischen Judenmatrikelen von 1817" by Dirk Rosenstock, page 228.)
Thanks for the information. That Aufenau was Bavarian from 1814 to mid 1860s explains why it is shown to be in Bavaria in my late dad's notes. The idea that Joseph Frank (Sr) might have been Jewish was pure speculation, based on the possibility of the name being Jewish in some cases, and despite the fact that his son married in a Christian church in New York City. My late dad's notes show that the son was 28 years old in 1851, when he married a Margaretha Barbara Schartzer (age 21) "a native of Graefenberg, Oberfranken, Bavaria...". Earlier in my dad's notes it says "...Mr. Joseph Franck, a single man 28 years of age, a native of Auffenau, Ldg. Orb, Unterfranken, Bavaria..." I've puzzled over the apparent abbreviations "Ldg." and "Orb", not knowing what they mean. The "b" almost looks like an "L" in my dad's notes.

Joseph Frank and Margaretha Schartzer were married in the German Universal Christian Church of the City of New York on the 18th of May, 1851, with Mr. Phillip Schartzer and Mr. Joseph Franck (Sr) "...attending witnesses..".


The title of the book sounds like it is a record of Jewish marriages in upper Bavaria, although I only know a few German words.
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  #49  
Old 13th February 2012, 09:00 AM
Javelin Javelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
a native of Auffenau, Ldg. Orb, Unterfranken, Bavaria..." I've puzzled over the apparent abbreviations "Ldg." and "Orb", not knowing what they mean. The "b" almost looks like an "L" in my dad's notes.
"Orb" = Bad Orb, a large town near Aufenau
"Ldg" might be a misprint or misreading of Landkreis (district)?

Today it is spelled with one F and is in Hesse. There's a little view of the town's past here:

http://www.aufenau.com/_private/Tauber.htm
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  #50  
Old 13th February 2012, 05:15 PM
ursus ursus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
Thanks for the information. That Aufenau was Bavarian from 1814 to mid 1860s explains why it is shown to be in Bavaria in my late dad's notes. The idea that Joseph Frank (Sr) might have been Jewish was pure speculation, based on the possibility of the name being Jewish in some cases, and despite the fact that his son married in a Christian church in New York City. My late dad's notes show that the son was 28 years old in 1851, when he married a Margaretha Barbara Schartzer (age 21) "a native of Graefenberg, Oberfranken, Bavaria...". Earlier in my dad's notes it says "...Mr. Joseph Franck, a single man 28 years of age, a native of Auffenau, Ldg. Orb, Unterfranken, Bavaria..." I've puzzled over the apparent abbreviations "Ldg." and "Orb", not knowing what they mean. The "b" almost looks like an "L" in my dad's notes.

Joseph Frank and Margaretha Schartzer were married in the German Universal Christian Church of the City of New York on the 18th of May, 1851, with Mr. Phillip Schartzer and Mr. Joseph Franck (Sr) "...attending witnesses..".

The title of the book sounds like it is a record of Jewish marriages in upper Bavaria, although I only know a few German words.
It's indeed Ldg., an abbreviation for Landgericht meaning State Court. That roughly means County, i.e. Orb (now Bad Orb) is where the court was. Bad Orb is another town that was then in Bayern and now in Hessen.

Edit: Javelin said part of that.

Last edited by ursus; 13th February 2012 at 05:17 PM.
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