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  #1  
Old 3rd June 2018, 02:59 PM
Gnarlodious Gnarlodious is offline
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Mystery of Goth genetics in Trondelag Norway

I’ve been involved in a mystery since having mine and my uncle’s DNA tested. We have very reliable genealogy going back to 1645 in the Trondelag region of Norway east of Trondheim.

However the mystery is that FTDNA.com shows no such place of origin. They call this chunk of DNA “Eastern European”, and it matches populations from a large swath including Bulgaria north to Estonia, and from Crimea west to Germany. Others have informed me that this was the area of the Goths, a stateless tribe usually said to be extinct. It makes sense because it explains other mysteries in this part of my family. What are the chances there was an enclave of Goth genetics in that corner of Norway? Is that a reasonable assumption?

Between my uncle and me we do have verifiable Norwegian connections from the Trondelag area, so it is not an adoption case. I just wonder if there has been any research into the Goth origins of that area.
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Old 3rd June 2018, 05:13 PM
Ivar Kristensen Ivar Kristensen is offline
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Is there really such a thing as "Goth genetics"?

Immigration from the Baltic region is not unlikely. One of my ancestors, Hans Pedersen Leth/Lett/Lætt (d. 1679) was a merchant in Trondheim, and his surname has an interesting etymology: Lett = from Lettland, i.e. Latvia. He was in fact Danish, but one of his ancestors probably immigrated from Lettland.

Last edited by Ivar Kristensen; 3rd June 2018 at 06:21 PM.
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  #3  
Old 3rd June 2018, 06:18 PM
Epiphyte Epiphyte is offline
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Norwegian DNA examples

Do you have any DNA matches from Trøndelag region? Spouse and I both have some Norwegian ancestry, including from this region. About 50% of the people on our match lists are Norwegians and Swedes on FTDNA. Spouse is about 50% Norwegian on paper trail, and on Family Finder, 58% Scandinavian, 0% East European, 0% Finnish, 36% British Isles. I've got some known relatively recent Swedish and Danish immigrant ancestors as well as grandparent immigrant ancestor from Nord-Trøndelag region of Norway. On Family Finder I'm 44% Scandinavian, 5% Finnish, 30% British Isles, 14% East Europe, 6% Southeast Europe. I just figured the East Europe might represent the little tiny bit of German I have on paper trail, as I wasn't assigned to any other regions that include or overlap with Germany. I also figured this bit might be due to various invasions/trade routes. No explanation for SE Europe, presumably due more ancient population movement. Like many others, I've got quite a few Finnish cousins on my FTDNA match list without any direct connection to Finland on the paper trail. If you test on Ancestry, they have a "genetic community" called Trøndelag & Hedmark. Spouse and I were both assigned to this genetic community along with over 1000 of our matches. You could consider testing there and see what happens.
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  #4  
Old 3rd June 2018, 07:23 PM
Gnarlodious Gnarlodious is offline
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Goth genetics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivar Kristensen View Post
Is there really such a thing as "Goth genetics"?
No, but like any extinct population you don't have a known modern sample to compare. I first became interested in this while studying the history of milk drinking:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture
> A very low level (5%) of an allele (-13910*T) strongly associated with the ability to consume unprocessed milk at adulthood was found among Pitted Ware Culture individuals in Gotland, Sweden. This frequency is dramatically different from the extant Swedish population (74%).

It would be a study to find similar genetics between FTDNA's “East European” and the 4,000 year old Gotland milk drinker. When I look at my distribution map, the northern tip of the area passes through Gotland, and it looks like the Gotlanders spread southward. Because historical records of the Goths seem to match that migration pattern. I just wonder if “East European” really means Gotlanders aka Goths.
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  #5  
Old 4th June 2018, 05:11 AM
spruithean spruithean is online now
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Eastern European on FamilyFinder as defined by FamilyTreeDNA:

Quote:
The East Europe cluster consists of an area encompassing present day Latvia, south to Ukraine, Romania, and the northern part of Bulgaria, west along the eastern edge of the Balkan states to Poland and the eastern half of Germany.

The early populations in the East Europe cluster consisted largely of small agricultural communities. Some of these developed indigenously, while others were colonies of farming communities from Asia Minor. Eastern Europe played a significant role in the metalworking traditions of Scandinavia, and an intense metal trade was established between the two by 1500 BCE. In 1000 BCE invasions from the Celts (from Gaul and Germany) in 1000 BCE in the north and central regions and invasion from Iranian tribes to the south in interrupted this trade. By 200 BCE, Scandinavian groups drove southward and ended the Iranian control in the south.

Slavs from the North Carpathian Mountains were forced into the steppe regions of present day Ukraine and Belarus by the 5th century CE. The Turkish Empire controlled the Ukrainian steppe between 700–900 CE and used its location to improve their mercantile empire. By the Viking Age of the 8th century CE, trade between the Scandinavia cluster and the East Europe cluster continued. By the middle of the 9th century CE, Vikings took control of the trade route that ran from the Baltic Sea, along the Dnieper River, and into Constantinople in present day Turkey. The Vikings exploited the local Slavic peoples and established their stronghold in Kiev. These Viking merchants were to be the progenitors of the Kievan Princes. By the 11th century CE, the Viking Age ended, and in 1240, the Mongol army sacked Kiev, adding further cultural and genetic influence to this cluster. Since the invasion of Kiev, this arm of the Mongol army became known as the Golden Horde—the western portion of the Mongol Empire.

The East Europe cluster sits on two prominent trade routes, which resulted in a history complete with invasion and migration. As a result, the genetic relatedness of populations within this cluster is shaped by the water trade routes from Scandinavia and from the Baltic to (the Black Sea) Constantinople via the Volga, Dnieper, Dniester and the Danube, connecting Eastern Europe with Scandinavia and Siberia; it also includes the Steppe region, connecting Eastern Europe to Russia, Asia Minor, and the Eastern Middle East. Genetic diversity in this region is high.
Here is the link to this page for other information.
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  #6  
Old 4th June 2018, 06:46 AM
Biblioteque Biblioteque is offline
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spruithean, thank you for posting that. It is valuable information.
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  #7  
Old 4th June 2018, 09:10 AM
Gnarlodious Gnarlodious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epiphyte View Post
Do you have any DNA matches from Trøndelag region?
Yes, a number of my uncles' top matches are from there, including one from Rottemsaunet which is neighboring to Snillfjord. So I guess that is verified. The more I learn the more I realize this genetic mapping thing is an inexact science, and taking it too seriously will lead you astray.
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  #8  
Old 4th June 2018, 01:26 PM
spruithean spruithean is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnarlodious View Post
Yes, a number of my uncles' top matches are from there, including one from Rottemsaunet which is neighboring to Snillfjord. So I guess that is verified. The more I learn the more I realize this genetic mapping thing is an inexact science, and taking it too seriously will lead you astray.
I agree. I believe all customers and potential customers should be made aware of this. The focus of these tests should be directed towards finding relatives, and the ethnic estimations should be taken with a grain of salt.
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