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  #81  
Old 22nd June 2014, 09:02 AM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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This is a 2 year old thread, but I've come upon new information on my Frank and Schaertzer lines that, presumably, will change my search criteria. I never received a response from the Staatsarchiv Marburg, but info from them may no longer be relevant. But I do want to immensely thank Ursus, Javelin, and others, who provided me with invaluable information.

A new cousin showed up recently on Ancestry.com, who shares my gr-gr-grandparents, Joseph Frank and Margaretha Schaertzer. Their daughter, Elizabeth Frank, is my gr-gr-grandmother, on my dad's side. My new cousin descends from one of Elizabeth's sisters, named Amelia. From his tree I found out that Joseph Frank was born in Frankfurt-am-Main, and Margaretha Schaertzer was born in Vorbachzimmern, Germany.

Finding that Joseph Frank was born in Frankfurt-am-Main made me wonder if my Frank line could be related to the family of Anne Frank, which also came from Frankfurt-am-Main. But I suspect it is just a coincidence, as the Frank surname is probably more common among Christians than those of Jewish heritage.

Additionally, I am scoring 0% Jewish Diaspora (JD) here at FTDNA, (and over at 23andme), whereas a gr-gr-grandfather, if fully Jewish, should register 3.125% JD. However, I did notice on one thread here that people who score 0% Ashkenazi over at 23andme, will score small percentages here. I saw one case being 7% here and 0% at 23andme. Additionally, on that same thread it was noted that one sibling could score 0% JD and another 5%, etc. So, maybe, a connection to the family of Anne Frank cannot be completely ruled out until I test several of my siblings here.
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  #82  
Old 22nd June 2014, 10:25 AM
josh w. josh w. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
This is a 2 year old thread, but I've come upon new information on my Frank and Schaertzer lines that, presumably, will change my search criteria. I never received a response from the Staatsarchiv Marburg, but info from them may no longer be relevant. But I do want to immensely thank Ursus, Javelin, and others, who provided me with invaluable information.

A new cousin showed up recently on Ancestry.com, who shares my gr-gr-grandparents, Joseph Frank and Margaretha Schaertzer. Their daughter, Elizabeth Frank, is my gr-gr-grandmother, on my dad's side. My new cousin descends from one of Elizabeth's sisters, named Amelia. From his tree I found out that Joseph Frank was born in Frankfurt-am-Main, and Margaretha Schaertzer was born in Vorbachzimmern, Germany.

Finding that Joseph Frank was born in Frankfurt-am-Main made me wonder if my Frank line could be related to the family of Anne Frank, which also came from Frankfurt-am-Main. But I suspect it is just a coincidence, as the Frank surname is probably more common among Christians than those of Jewish heritage.

Additionally, I am scoring 0% Jewish Diaspora (JD) here at FTDNA, (and over at 23andme), whereas a gr-gr-grandfather, if fully Jewish, should register 3.125% JD. However, I did notice on one thread here that people who score 0% Ashkenazi over at 23andme, will score small percentages here. I saw one case being 7% here and 0% at 23andme. Additionally, on that same thread it was noted that one sibling could score 0% JD and another 5%, etc. So, maybe, a connection to the family of Anne Frank cannot be completely ruled out until I test several of my siblings here.
Frank is a fairly common Jewish name, but the various admixture calculators don't really point in that direction
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  #83  
Old 22nd June 2014, 08:14 PM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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Yes, I agree the numbers don't indicate any Jewish within 5 or 6 generations. But, I have wondered whether my Schaertzer line might be distantly connected to a Jewish Schertzer lineage. Ted Kandell, who used to post over at 23andme had Schertzer in his family name list, and is 100% Ashkenazi. I match him on one segment, 6.7 cM, and 1,338 SNPs on Gedmatch. Just a speculation, though.
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  #84  
Old 22nd June 2014, 09:48 PM
Táltos Táltos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
Additionally, I am scoring 0% Jewish Diaspora (JD) here at FTDNA, (and over at 23andme), whereas a gr-gr-grandfather, if fully Jewish, should register 3.125% JD. However, I did notice on one thread here that people who score 0% Ashkenazi over at 23andme, will score small percentages here. I saw one case being 7% here and 0% at 23andme. Additionally, on that same thread it was noted that one sibling could score 0% JD and another 5%, etc. So, maybe, a connection to the family of Anne Frank cannot be completely ruled out until I test several of my siblings here.
Hi Dave123,
Did you see the thread over at 23andme about myOrigins? In it the original poster had wrote to FTDNA about the Jewish Diaspora category and was told in an email back to him that you have to score 5% to get the Jewish Diaspora assigned. My JD here is 5%. Over at 23andme my Ashkenazi in all three modes is 0.9, as is my daughter's in the first two modes. She makes it up to 1.0 in Speculative.

I'm actually still wondering about this JD category here. Some people with Southern Italian and/or Sicilian ancestry are still reporting some amounts of this. Over at 23andme they certainly are not getting Ashkenazi scores, though some will get a small Middle Eastern percentage. Over there they are pretty much assigned Italian. Though some Armenians on 23andme also get an Italian score. Thought I would mention that as there always seems to be some similarity with Eastern Mediterranean groups.

Last edited by Táltos; 22nd June 2014 at 09:50 PM.
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  #85  
Old 24th June 2014, 08:02 AM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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@Taltos:

Thanks for the response. That might have been the thread I was referring to, I'll have to log in back over there. I didn't realize that the break point for JD here is 5%. That seems huge. In principle if I had 3% from a gr-gr-grandfather, it wouldn't show up here. I've been meaning to transfer my older brother's data here to see what shows up.
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  #86  
Old 24th June 2014, 09:28 AM
Táltos Táltos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
@Taltos:

Thanks for the response. That might have been the thread I was referring to, I'll have to log in back over there. I didn't realize that the break point for JD here is 5%. That seems huge. In principle if I had 3% from a gr-gr-grandfather, it wouldn't show up here. I've been meaning to transfer my older brother's data here to see what shows up.
Your welcome Dave. I agree that the 5% seems huge. I'm not sure I trust their customer service either if since they told a poster in another thread here that Eastern Europe in his mother + Asia Minor in his father = Jewish in him!

This is why I'm annoyed that the white paper really does not give us much detail about the little nuances of this test. Why is a cut off point of 5% for Jewish, but for Native American it can be 1%? They could have done a much better job than telling us about the fusion of a man and a woman and the population explosions across planet Earth. They have the one small section to tell us about K clusters which is not enough of an explanation for me, as I am sure it is not for others.

They used to do a great job in their FAQ sections to explain the old PF, even though a lot of us did not like the old PF. And now this might be a really wrong assumption from me, but seeing as I have nothing to really go on. I am starting to wonder if they used our old margins of error to go into certain scores? I am wondering this because I was comparing with someone our old vs new. We both had very similar old results, which was the French/Orcadian + almost every Middle Eastern group. Now it seems for the better they have a mostly British Isles for their European part, and I have a mostly Eastern European for my European result. Which is great don't get me wrong these would match both of what we know. But our Middle Eastern scores especially in regard to the Jewish breakdowns, seem to account for our old margin of errors!

My old Middle East result was 14. something with a margin of error of 5. something. I now have 12% Asia Minor, 5% Jewish Diaspora. The other person had 20. something percent Middle Eastern with a margin of error of 6. something. And now they are Jewish Diaspora 29%, Asia Minor 2%. Though the numbers are not exact and maybe for one it went more into Jewish, it to me seems that the margin of error went there. We both also had our European scores reduced a little bit from the old version.

But who knows until they want to give us a more detailed explanation other than this is deep ancestry. I'm finding this to be more useless than before. A lot of us want to be able to use this as a tool in doing our genealogical research, not for cocktail party conversation.

Last edited by Táltos; 24th June 2014 at 09:42 AM.
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  #87  
Old 25th June 2014, 08:25 AM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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@Taltos:

Interesting about the percentages you cite between the old PF and it's MyOrigins replacement. It does appear that they based the new BGA on the old dual-percentages - Orcadian/Middle East, if I remember. I too was rather baffled by my results. I knew I was predominantly NW Euro - British Isles and Germany - but I had no Scandinavian heritage, and ended up with 27%! No other test has assigned me that much, anywhere. 23andme ranges from 0% to 2.6% - my brother about the same. I could rationalize that the Vikings, or more recent Scandinavian immigrants, influenced the Isles and German gene pool, but that seems excessive.

Additionally, unlike any other test, I received 2% Central/South Asian, seemingly centered on Afghanistan, but including India and Pakistan, I believe. I'm wondering if they are misinterpreting a Middle East component, as that would be far more likely at that small percentage, especially as Middle East farmers repopulated Europe after the Ice Age. All the rest (71%) was "European Coastal Islands", which I assume is the British Isles. That was reasonable, until my recent discovery of Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry on my dad's mother's side of the family, which seems to indicate I'm actually 3/8ths German and 5/8ths Isles. Granted, these populations are, no doubt, very genetically intertwined, so it's probably a toss-up in assigning percentages.

What I suspect the new test is doing is assigning peripheral populations on, roughly, opposite (geographic) sides of a person's core genome region, and giving them far more weight than they deserve. Dr. McDonald was doing much the same thing in his 'alternative' analyses, where he would experiment with different population combinations.

I'm also wondering if they don't 'tweak' a person's results by what they report on their actual paper ancestry. In fact, I wonder if all the companies might be doing that to some degree.

Finally, I'm wondering why FTDNA didn't take a page from 23andme's book, and study their algorithm, as that seems to work just fine for most people. Perhaps the reason is that the information is proprietary and not really available.

Last edited by Dave123; 25th June 2014 at 08:31 AM.
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  #88  
Old 25th June 2014, 10:22 AM
KATM KATM is online now
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about that 5% . . .

The 5% Jewish Diaspora mention in this thread caught my eye.

I have several known relatives tested using Family Finder here at FTDNA: 4 siblings (including me), our father, a paternal aunt, a paternal first cousin to my father (all these share Irish ancestry, with all but the first cousin also sharing German/Austrian and Swiss ancestry); and a maternal first cousin to me and my siblings (shared Greek and Greek/Maltese ancestry).

Only one shows any Jewish Diaspora amount in myOrigins, that being one of my siblings. He has the 5% amount that others have mentioned.

My question is, even if this 5% wasn't Jewish Diaspora, but some other ethnicity/cluster, isn't it odd that no other known relatives in such a group show any amount in myOrigins? Only three of us are at Gedmatch, and using the Eurogenes Jtest admixture there, both my father and my brother both show over 5% Ashkenazi, and I show over 8%. Other Gedmatch utilities give varying results. I really don't know how to interpret them.

My father and I are also tested at 23andMe, and neither of us show any Ashkenazi there.

There is recent all-Mediterranean ancestry (Greek and Maltese) on my mother's side (she never tested and is deceased). The maternal cousin does not show Jewish diaspora in her myOrigins. I'm having a hard time getting other maternal relatives to test.

There is 19th century German ancestry on my father's side, but I have only been able to tentatively pinpoint what may be the place of origin in Germany, which looks so far to be in Prussia (now in Poland since WWII). Could this be the source of the 5%? That branch, as far as we've been able to determine, was not Jewish.

All these bioethnicity differences make my head hurt.
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  #89  
Old 25th June 2014, 09:48 PM
Nijuurasen Nijuurasen is offline
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Stupid question, but if someone has less than 5% Ashkenazi in MO where does that percentage "go"? Hard to believe it's not mentioned in any official documentation.

If they keep refining and adding to the populations MO could become a useful tool, but as it stands...
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  #90  
Old 17th May 2018, 06:46 PM
Dave123 Dave123 is offline
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This is now a 4 year old thread, so a bit out of date. But one of my two (surviving) sisters recently tested at Ancestry.com and came up with 1% "European Jewish", with the error bar ranging up to 4%. Over there I test zero for European Jewish, so now I'm eager to have my other sister tested, and two brothers as well at Ancestry.com. I may want to wait for a sale, though.

In any case my sister's results have rekindled my interest in our (paternal side) Frank line from Frankfurt-am-Main. My third gr-grandfather was a Joseph Frank, from that city, and if he was 100% Ashkenazi, my sibling's and myself would have about 3.125% Jewish, so my sister's maximum of 4% would encompass that range. If he was only 1/3rd Jewish say, then the 1% would be accurate.

There's an old saying that girls take after their father and boys their mother. That seems to be true in our family, as our 3 sisters have freckle-free skin like our dad, while my two brothers and I have freckles like our mom. Also, our two remaining sisters developed arthritis, which ran in our dad's family side, while neither of my brother's or I ever had this condition, and we are now in our early 70's (our mom's side was never known to develop arthritis). So, possibly, the Frank DNA popped up only on the female side.
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