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  #121  
Old 31st July 2018, 01:12 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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I've had a hard time getting my bearings about the Vincent branch of FGC23343.

The first thing that I noticed was a very close high resolution match with a fellow surnamed Carroll. It's been a while now since I looked, but I don't think I had much luck getting a grip on their earliest known ancestor. I think they may be claiming a MRCA with some people who have tested M222+, someone who lived at the other end of Virginia, on the border with North Carolina. It's so hard to tell because the entries I saw were kind of vague as to dates and places, and the names involved were all so common that I never felt for sure that I was looking at the same people.

In any event, I left with the tentative impression that there may have been an NPE in the Carroll line, and that the surname of the biological ancestor was something else. In context, probably Vincent, but as I said, I never really felt like I had a solid grip on the facts of that pedigree.

Figuring out the likely crossover point in the Vincent and Carroll migration paths might possibly yield some information relevant to their origin in Europe.

Another thing that I noticed is that the Vincent surname is almost unheard of in Scotland. I found like maybe two birth records before 1800, and both of those in major urban centers, where I'd have to wonder whether they were recent immigrants, be it from France or England.


The only independent reference I found to Vincents connected to Dumfriesshire was the marriage of a gentry woman surnamed Vincent from Yorkshire, England to some Scottish aristocrat owning lands in Dumfriesshire--not necessarily even resident there. I didn't really get a sense of a continuous settlement or association with Dumfriesshire.


In modern times, the surname Vincent in England seems to be almost exclusively associated with the southern coastal shires. Which seems odd, because the most noteworthy family named Vincent I could find anything about first appears in Swinford, Leicstershire, far to the north, in the late 1400s, mostly as clerics and business people rather than feudal lords.


That's how the Edgeworths of Edgeworthstown, Co. Longford emerge, too, as clergymen, law clerks and officials. But their earliest records at least put them in the same circles as Cheshire gentry families of feudal origins, like the Gerards and Garnetts. This is by far and away the best documented of the FGC23343 lines I've looked at to date, although the most popular accounts have more of a literary than strictly historical flavor to them. Luckily, there was enough corroborative information available in government records, etc. to help me iron out my misunderstandings.

There's something of an odd mismatch here, too, because while the names Gerard and Garnett are stereotypical of the old feudal gentry of Cheshire and Lancashire, the branches to which the donors belong to are obscure. These particular Garnetts appear as the owners of manors in Cheshire only from the 17th century, and their link to the ancient feudal family of that name is only assumed and not really proven.

The earliest documented ancestors of the Gerard donors appear first only in 18th century America, as ministers of a dissenting church. That's not what I would have initially expected of representatives of an ancient feudal family of their prominence, and I wonder if that's what the donors may have felt, too, because their family tradition speculates a Huguenot origin for them, although that it clearly not the case given their close STR and SNP matches. I later found out that many cadet branches of old feudal families in Lancashire and Cheshire came within the Quaker community, so maybe my initial impression was rash, but the lack of clarity in their origin story seemed odd to me.

I'm drawing my tentative conclusion that Gerard is the surname of their common biological ancestor primarily because computerized networking analyses of the FGC23343 haplotypes put them in a clear and relatively recent relationship with families from Normandy (i.e., Dorey) and Scotland (i.e., Henderson), which lines up nicely with the most likely origins of the feudal Gerard family. Also, in the documentary record, there is an awful lot of intimate contact between these Edgeworth and Garnett families with one specific branch of the feudal Gerards--the Gerards of Ince, Lancashire. The available information is far from perfect, but at least there is some, pointing specifically in that direction.

From a documentary point of view, the Vincents are probably in a situation closer to what I call the Swift branch of FGC28370/FGC23343--the robust documentation only appearing in Virginia in the early 1700s. But at least in the Swift situation, they had close STR and SNP matches with people of more recent British origins to work off of, and a highly unusual given name for their founder--"Flower" Swift--to allow more confident tracing to their European home.

The Vincents, like most FGC23343 branches, don't seem to have a particularly close relationship to the others. It feels difficult to draw any firm conclusions. I've been in contact with another FGC23343 person who appears to have a very strong paper trail taking them back to 19th century Scotland, but all that's been cast into doubt recently by a series of very strong STR matches with people of definite French origin, completely consistent with their autosomal DNA results.

I'm beginning to think that while the FGC28370 branch of FGC23343 does indeed have a Viking origin, it will probably turn out that they are an uncharacteristic outlier, and that FGC23343's densest concentration will probably be in south western France.

I think FGC23343 has only been recently discovered, so maybe the currently paltry number of samples doesn't truly reflect their actual presence in the population at large or geographic distribution. Certainly, the unfortunate apparent tendency to NPEs in these lines makes the situation even less clear.
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  #122  
Old 31st July 2018, 05:12 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Against all that, I did notice a 37 marker STR haplotype in the Norway project that is like GD of 6 vs. Henderson, the Shetlander. That could indicate a substantial Norse element within FGC23343 from an early date. It would be nice to know whether or not they test positive for the actual SNP. The diagnostic STR markers are not so reliable, especially the ones occurring in the first 37 markers of the standard FTNDA array.

If memory serves, Henderson's family legend is that they originate in Caithness on the mainland, and are not aboriginal Shetlanders. So, even if this Norwegian fellow does test FGC23343+, does it suggest migration to or FROM Scotland? I've only seen the one potential FGC23343 in Norway, vs. perhaps 3 different lineages in tiny Shetland (only one confirmed). So I guess the current scanty evidence would suggest the path is FROM Shetland TO Norway. But still with an exceptionally early arrival in Shetland, given the haplotype diversity.

I wish more people would test for FGC23343. I wish more intermediary SNPs would be discovered. It's got a really weird distribution and its young enough where intermediary SNPs would be researchable in the historical period. There are some odd mysteries that it wold be neat to resolve, but so far it looks like they're only refining FGC28370 without providing significant new information on its history.
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  #123  
Old 2nd August 2018, 10:41 AM
mpryon mpryon is offline
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Y9087*

A wee update, my BigY results are in and yfull has me initially pegged at Y9087*
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  #124  
Old 2nd August 2018, 11:16 AM
SDV SDV is offline
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Regarding Vincents

The wall i hit and possible expansion of my family lineage in time occurs in the early 1700's late 1600's. I refer to the Monmouth Rebellion in 1685, 7 Vincents took part in the rebellion. John Vincent the Captain from Holland, John Vincent the unconventional minister and Joseph Vincent the fuller are the three that i focus upon. John the Captain came from Holland and was sent to Barbados after the rebellion was quashed. John the nonconformist minister served time and was pardoned for storing munitions in churches. Joseph the fuller it is documented was presumably pardoned. (was he a child?) Its the documentation of presumably pardoned that has me thinking.

I do not know with any certainty whether Josephs father was John the captain or John the minister, or he may have been the captains son and taken in by the minister. The Monmouth rebellion is documented history, my family lore is not. The minor nobility status of the ecclesiastical Vincents may have saved Joseph, the ones with ties in the Dumfrieshire area. Vincent gentry in Dumfrieshire puts us also in close proximity of the Ulster scots and quite possibly the Carroll family. What I am sure of, Joseph and John, are common names in my line of descendants in England. Also, that one Vincent made it to Virginia, and he lists Dumfrieshire, Scotland as to were he came from.
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  #125  
Old 2nd August 2018, 12:19 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpryon View Post
A wee update, my BigY results are in and yfull has me initially pegged at Y9087*
I think Y9087 is functionally equivalent to FGC23343. That's the way the Big Tree depicts it, and Y Full, too. So, unforunately, no new info, it seems.

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=969

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9087/

I guess the way they do it is they run the results of all the people on Big Y through some networking software and estimate the age of groups of shared SNPs (e.g., something like ~145 years * # of shared SNPs= estimated age). rather than focusing on individual SNPs.

One result is that it takes a while for consensus to develop as to what to name the new groups of shared SNPs. It seems like they usually pick one of the individual mutations in the new group, though on what basis I do not know/ It could be any one of the individual shared SNPs. I think it's even more complicated because I think there are different groups performing similar testing and analysis, who may apply a completely different name to an identical mutation at the identical location.

I think it was maybe only two years ago that what I call the FGC23343 group was identified. I'm just speculating here, but that is probably due in part to the fact that FTDNA can't really directly market to people in France, and although there does indeed appear to be a "viking" subgroup within FGC23343, it is probably the case that FGC23343 will find its densest concentration in south west France.

Still, it's weird that no SNP has been found between ZZ40 and FGC23343. I think the 50% confidence estimates for their ages are something like 4,500 years ago and 1,800 years ago, respectively. It's weird that they're finding all these SNPs under FGC28370, which is supposedly only 500 years ago, but nothing between ZZ40 and FGC23343.

On average, I would have expected to see around 19 mutations separating them, which could have been really helpful in distinguishing FGC23343's various branches.
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  #126  
Old 2nd August 2018, 12:28 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDV View Post
. . . Also, that one Vincent made it to Virginia, and he lists Dumfrieshire, Scotland as to were he came from.
What sort of document does this appear in? Is there a full citation to something in a government archive? Or is it something private like a family bible? Or maybe a letter written by a grandson or something?
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  #127  
Old 3rd August 2018, 12:56 PM
SDV SDV is offline
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Regarding Vincents

The most definitive documentation I have Vincents with a Scot background comes from the records of Joseph Vincent Sr. the revolutionary War soldier. It is also the most distant of the accurate records of my lineage. Dumfrieshire is family lore. Scotland is family lore. His father being John is also family lore. Apologies on saying that Joseph stated Dumfries, he only states Scotland.

The lore was brought to me by way of my grandfathers sister, an amateur genealogist, whom also says Vincents all sprung from Miles Vincent in Daneland in the year 1273 (as stated there are at least 5 distinct genetic Vincent lines in the United States so Denmark cannot be the origin of all 5 lines). I have no precise records before the revolutionary War. This was my genesis for genetic testing. To prove or disprove the lore with the genetic analysis.

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm....&id=I647497694
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  #128  
Old 3rd August 2018, 01:58 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Scotland would make sense with the general ethnic makeup of the first community that you find any documentation for this family. Scotland, usually through Ireland.

But that's just like a plurality of the community. There's a wide mix of other ethnic origins represented, too, like Huguenots from the old Manakin town settlement in Goochland County. And, of course, people from every part of England.

Vincent is just such an incredibly rare name in Scotland that I have a hard time finding any contemporary records for it there. Really, it's even rare in the parts of England where the gentry family of that name are associated. It only occurs with any frequency along the southern coastal shires, and I haven't found much to distinguish one family of the name from another there.

Historically, just going on raw frequency, Virginia colonists were most heavily recruited from the southern shires, anyhow, seeing as that's where Gov. William Berkeley and his cronies were from. Though, as I mentioned, they did recruit people from every part of England.

But I can't even find any corroborated records for even the gentry Vincents before like 1500, and they don't seem to have a pattern of close association with the feudal gentry, like the Edgeworths do. Maybe there are genuine records of a Vincent family going back to the 1300s, but if so I haven't found corroborating documents connecting them to the family which eventually became prominent in the 1500s. They could be entirely separate families as far as I know right now.

The surname Vincent doesn't seem to appear in any of the research posted at the Manakin Town website, so that's probably one avenue of research closed off. Not that all Huguenots in Virginia came through Manakin Town, but it's the first place I thought to look.

I sorted through the SNP data listed for FGC23343+ participants in the DF27 project, to see if there were any potential SNPs differentiating the French or German branches from the British branches, but of course I didn't find anything. I guess if there were anything to find, it would have been found already by someone else.

The exercise of generating an SAPP chart of all the known or suspected FGC23343+ STR haplotypes didn't really return anything helpful or even suggestive for the Vincents. Really, it didn't prove to be too helpful for most participants, only what I call the fitz Gerard branch, and their closest "near matches".

It's just so weird that they keep refining FGC28370, which is only around 500 years old, but they can't find anything relative to the gap between FGC23343 and ZZ40, which is like a span of 2,700 years.

Honestly, apart from the fitz Gerards and the Hendersons and Doreys, none of the FGC23343 people fall into a clear set of relationships, extrapolating from the STR data. And the MRCA of that fitz Gerard group might be 800 A.D., or ~65% of the estimated lifespan of FGC23343. The implication being, based on genetic distances, that the Vincents' most recent common ancestor with the fitz Gerards is significantly earlier than 800 A.D.

That's just an estimate, of course. But working with this range, the most recent common ancestor would be born between 200 A.D. and 800 A.D., going by the ancestral haplotype deduced from this network chart. Doesn't make it sound particularly British.

Like most of the known or suspected FGC23343 haplotypes, the Vincents aren't particularly close to anyone else. Relatively speaking their "closest" relative match would be a fellow named Honta, from the Basque country in Southern France, with an estimated MRCA of about 1080 A.D. The rest are predicted in the range of 650 A.D. to 850 A.D. As far as I know, Honta hasn't tested for FGC23343, but he's got all the right values on the diagnostic markers, and being in the Basque country makes sense for the parent clade, ZZ40.


FGC23343 just has a really weird distribution, and the only branch that there's any really useful information about is FGC28370 and what I call the fitz Gerards. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that their history is probably not very representative of FGC23343 as a whole, and a big part of the problem of small sample size in testing is probably because FTDNA can't market directly in France.
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  #129  
Old 3rd August 2018, 02:40 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Another thought that just occurs to me is that some of these ethnic labels I've been tossing around are not, strictly speaking, mutually exclusive.

For example, the well-known Crockett family, from the Borden tract in central and south western Virginia are originally of French Huguenot origin, but had been living in County Donegal, Ireland, for a couple generations before coming to America in the early 1700s. They had been living among and intermarried with families of heavy Scots extraction for so long that I could easily imagine them describing themselves as Scots upon arrival in America, even though, strictly speaking, that surname has no history whatsoever in Scotland.

Just a stray thought.
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