Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma

[Donald Locke]

Thanks Donald.

I too have wondered if the Romany deportations to America were a lot greater in number than history records. If they had assumed English names and if the "crime" did not outright describe them as gypsies, there could have been a lot that have been undetected by genealogy.

This might be one of the more significant ethnic/ demographic phenomenons that genetic genealogy has uncovered.

Timothy Peterman

@ TImothy
I personally believe not every Romany of England and Scotland whom was transported were openly described as an Egyptian / Gypsy in the convict records. Presuming they all were not openly described by their ethnic description in the records, yes it is very possible there were many more Romanies transported then meets the eye.

The easy one's to pick out in the records is when they are openly described as Egyptian / Gypsy, but I do highly suspect many others were not described that way and they could easily be mistaken for just another Brit or Scot having been transported.

It isn't like this history was never recorded, it was!
It is the fact that few people have really focused on this small piece of colonial history to know the facts and myths behind that history and even I do not know it all, I wish I did! lol.

Even Romany historians do not know exactly how many Romany - Romany mixed individuals were transported and they have spent life times researching the subject.

And yes they for the most part they adopted very common surnames in England and Scotland.
Surnames like:
Lock / Locke
Boswell / possibly Boss too?
Stanley
Smith
Jones
Lovell
Cooper
Lee
Ayres
Gray
Whorton / Wharton / Warton / Worton
Broadway
Joles
Wood
Young
Blythe
Bailey
Campbell
Gordon

That is no where near a complete list of British and Scottish Romany surnames, but gives everyone a decent idea that yes they used for the most part very common surnames.

And that surname list obviously does not include the many Romany surnames through out Europe, that is just a few of the Romany of the UK.

[Donald Locke]

Just to give people a general idea of some of my research work. I have been helping trace the 1850's - 1900's Romanichal migration to the USA using the USA census records and vital records and posting those transcriptions on my web site. Not 100% of those listed on the web page are proven to be Romany, but 99% are Romany, specifically Romanichal's of England.

http://home.comcast.net/~lockeroots/GypsyCensusRecords.html

The later Romanichal immigrants are easier to research if you know who to be looking for in the records. And even that research is no where near complete, still a lot of work to do still.

It is the colonial Romanichal's whom are much harder to identify because in none of the paper records that I have personally laid eyes on, are they described as Egyptian / Gypsy, they are at most listed as "White" if anything was mentioned at all because they were at that time free people in the colonies. So identifying a Romany in the colonial era in the colonies isn't so easy a task.

Never in my Richard Lock records, my presumed immigrant is he ever mentioned as a Romany / Egyptian / Gypsy and he was living in Frederick County Virginia by the 1770's for sure, possibly living in the county by the 1750's.

Now if I could only lay my hand on all the indentured servant records from the colonial era, could I possibly be able to identify even more potential Romanies in those records lol.

[eastara]

I just found it. Thanks.

Timothy Peterman

Timothy, I just checked your results on 23andMe.
However, you have no South Asian there. If some other calculator is showing this, could be incorrect or highly speculative.
I checked also your Countries of Ancestry file and could not find any proven Roma among your relatives.
If you have any Roma or other South Asian connection it must be very distant and could not be proven where from.
I would like to point, that many Westerners think that if they have any Balkan relatives this is some proof of Roma origin. This is not the case as the vast majority of Balkan people have no Gypsy admixture. Real Balkan Roma are not into DNA testing, my information is only from Roma kids adopted in Western countries.
For example FTDNA Family Finder has no more than a few full blood Balkan Roma, as a project administrator I can see all the relatives of the single Bulgarian Roma, who has joined do far.

[T E Peterman]

I've been using Eurogenes13 at gedmatch for South Asian & that shows me to be at 0.87%, which is very slight.

My father, who is deceased, never tested at 23andme. Gedmatch shows his South Asian to be 2.59% & that of his brothers as 3.03% & 1.87%. None are at 23andme.

My father was darker than I am, with dark brown/ black eyes; olive toned complexion & coal black hair. A lot of people on his mother's side had similar complexions. There has been a lot of ethnic conjecture down through the years about where this might be coming from; none of it based on anything.

When I saw that he had an abnormally high South Asian percent, my new conjecture, based at least on genetic evidence, is that this South Asian must be the source of it.

But, that could just be where the Eurogenes13 model is classifying his genes. All segments have to model to one of 13 reference populations. The genes that are assigned to South Asian could be from a different source.

Timothy Peterman

[Donald Locke]

Timothy, I just checked your results on 23andMe.
However, you have no South Asian there. If some other calculator is showing this, could be incorrect or highly speculative.
I checked also your Countries of Ancestry file and could not find any proven Roma among your relatives.
If you have any Roma or other South Asian connection it must be very distant and could not be proven where from.
I would like to point, that many Westerners think that if they have any Balkan relatives this is some proof of Roma origin. This is not the case as the vast majority of Balkan people have no Gypsy admixture. Real Balkan Roma are not into DNA testing, my information is only from Roma kids adopted in Western countries.
For example FTDNA Family Finder has no more than a few full blood Balkan Roma, as a project administrator I can see all the relatives of the single Bulgarian Roma, who has joined do far.

@ eastara

Respectfully I disagree. I know of multiple British Romany whom do carry Y Haplogroup H1a who show zero percent South Asian in their autosomal tests, and they are traditional Romany. Some show very little South Asian, others have high South Asian percentages, and after 1000 plus years of admixture with the European population, it makes sense the calculators do not always pick up South Asian in those reports.

For me personally the admixture reports are all speculative at best anyway and not 100% science, for me it is who you match with that matters the most because sharing a Y DNA match, mtDNA match or autosomal segment match has far more meaning to me then any population admixture report.

I do not have any South Asian in my admixture report, yet I am a direct descendant of the Romanichal Locke family of England, I am in Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 proving my paternal ancestors were South Asian in origin. All my Y DNA matches are to Romanies from Western Europe and Eastern Europe as well, plus several of my autosomal matches are to Romany of Western and Eastern Europe.

So in my humble opinion, people should not solely rely on the population reports as their sole evidence, it is who you are matching with that matters the most.

And I respectfully disagree, if Timothy's Romany connection presuming he has a connection at all comes from the Colonial American era, which is clearly with in the genealogical paper trail time frame, it is possible with enough paper trail research to be able to identify that Romany ancestor if they came to the American Colonies.

Yes I agree it will not be an easy task to be able to identify a Romany ancestor, but I have already proven a Romany population in the American Colonies. But it is not impossible to be able to prove a Romany connection and suggesting it is next to impossible is leading people down the wrong path of just giving up any hope.

For me personally, I think it is a serious mistake for folks to solely rely on the admixture reports as their sole evidence of Romany / South Asian connections. It is who you DNA match with that in my mind helps prove there must be a connection there somewhere, which may or may not be a Romany connection, but is worth looking in to.

My Lock / Locke family has resided in the Virginia's for over 200 years, they are related to a whole lot of Virginians and anyone matching me and my family with Virginan family trees, should not so easily dismiss their DNA matches to me or to anyone in my tree.

I have a 6th cousin of the Locke surname whom has Y DNA tested and autosomal tested, he and I are a YDNA match, but we are not a Family Finder match.

I show 0 % South Asian in my FTDNA FF report, but my 6th cousin of the same surname shows 2% South Asian, and we are both in Y Haplo H1a - M82. So what, my FF test showing me as 0% South Asian has little meaning to me because I am also a 65/67 Y DNA match to a British Romanichal of the Locke surname and that has meaning.

Read in to the admixture reports as you see fit, but those reports do not tell the participant everything he / she needs to know. It is his or her DNA matches, Y DNA, mtDNA, autosomal DNA matches combined does a lot more information come to light. If everyone keeps solely relying on their admixture reports as evidence, then they are likely over looking obvious clues in their DNA matches to Romany DNA participants.

[georgian1950]

@ eastara

Respectfully I disagree. I know of multiple British Romany whom do carry Y Haplogroup H1a who show zero percent South Asian in their autosomal tests, and they are traditional Romany. Some show very little South Asian, others have high South Asian percentages, and after 1000 plus years of admixture with the European population, it makes sense the calculators do not always pick up South Asian in those reports.

I'm trying to write up something with more details, but typically a bit of South Asian is found in those with common ancestry in the 18th Century North Carolina human trafficking ring. Keep in mind that if you go back eight generations, you have 256 lines, so we can have a number of different influences. I have not looked much at the Romany question, but I would think the Y-DNA line cited by Donald Locke is the key component. However some of those Romany men that made it over the the American Colonies undoubtedly obtained wives that had ancestry in the NC situation. It makes for some vary diverse results.

Jack Wyatt

[Donald Locke]

I'm trying to write up something with more details, but typically a bit of South Asian is found in those with common ancestry in the 18th Century North Carolina human trafficking ring. Keep in mind that if you go back eight generations, you have 256 lines, so we can have a number of different influences. I have not looked much at the Romany question, but I would think the Y-DNA line cited by Donald Locke is the key component. However some of those Romany men that made it over the the American Colonies undoubtedly obtained wives that had ancestry in the NC situation. It makes for some vary diverse results.

Jack Wyatt

@ Jack
I do not know about that piece of history so I really can not speak about it with any authority.

What I can speak about with some authority is the fact that every Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 paternal lineage identified from the Colonial American era, they all have family trees that traces directly back to Virginia, and one from South Carolina but believes they had come from Virginia as well.

[eastara]

Haplogroups can identify deep ancestry, and H1a is no doubt connected to Roma. However, if you are not into the direct male line very little is left autosomally a few generation on to prove Roma connection through DNA testing.
I mentioned above one of the criteria is to match known Roma. British Roma are highly admixed with local Europeans and you can be connected to them through some other line.
For that reason I am looking for matching Balkan Roma as they are as "full blood" as they can get and of course, have no admixture with West Europeans.
I know at least one British Roma, who is matching some of the Balkan ones, try writing to boosroots on 23andMe.

[georgian1950]

@ eastera,

Are there any typical mtDNA haplogroups for Roma?

Thanks,

Jack Wyatt

[eastara]

@ eastera,

Are there any typical mtDNA haplogroups for Roma?

Thanks,

Jack Wyatt

Yes, the above study mentions them, it is behind a paid wall, but you can access the Supplementary data. The most typical, probably arriving with Roma in Europe are M5a1b1a1 and U3b1c.
Here is a more reliable study based on FMS tests:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0075397

[Beth Long]

One Romanian Roma Autosomal Result

We have a member of the Hungarian Bukovina project who I tested some years ago for Y-DNA. He lives in Romania, and his father's father was non-Roma (Hungarian). The other three grandparents were all Roma. For what it's worth, he showed the following:

29% Southern Europe
28% Eastern Europe
9% Central Asian
12% South Asian
11% Eastern Middle East
10% Asia Minor
1% New World

The New World piece is found among some of our other Transylvania Hungarians, as is Finland NE Asian in small amounts. I assume it comes from the Hungarian, rather than the Roma ancestors

[Donald Locke]

Haplogroups can identify deep ancestry, and H1a is no doubt connected to Roma. However, if you are not into the direct male line very little is left autosomally a few generation on to prove Roma connection through DNA testing.
I mentioned above one of the criteria is to match known Roma. British Roma are highly admixed with local Europeans and you can be connected to them through some other line.
For that reason I am looking for matching Balkan Roma as they are as "full blood" as they can get and of course, have no admixture with West Europeans.
I know at least one British Roma, who is matching some of the Balkan ones, try writing to boosroots on 23andMe.

@ eastara

Wow really? more "Full Blood"? You are exactly the reason many Romany refuse to DNA test, because they fear it will be used against them and not just by gadje but by their own people! You are not our judge and jury contrary to your biased belief. You have no right to judge who is more Rumney by looking at their admixture reports

A Rom is a Rom regardless of his or her admixture and I will give you a friendly piece of advice, such talk can only lead to tension, conflict and ill feelings. Please reframe from such talk because it is belittling and degrading to all Romany DNA participants, it serves no purpose other then to rile folks up, as if you are more Rumney then another because of your dinlo admixture report.

Brothers and sisters, let me say I am sorry by that kind of talk, it is boarding on the hateful side and hurtful side and I will not further this discussion because it serves but one purpose, to divide us not unite us.

End of this dinlo discussion, I see exactly where you are headed in this conversation and it will not end well because it serves zero purpose. No need to respond, I will not read it nor respond, waste of my time.

[eastara]

@ eastara

Wow really? more "Full Blood"? You are exactly the reason many Romany refuse to DNA test, because they fear it will be used against them and not just by gadje but by their own people! You are not our judge and jury contrary to your biased belief. You have no right to judge who is more Rumney by looking at their admixture reports

A Rom is a Rom regardless of his or her admixture and I will give you a friendly piece of advice, such talk can only lead to tension, conflict and ill feelings. Please reframe from such talk because it is belittling and degrading to all Romany DNA participants, it serves no purpose other then to rile folks up, as if you are more Rumney then another because of your dinlo admixture report.

Brothers and sisters, let me say I am sorry by that kind of talk, it is boarding on the hateful side and hurtful side and I will not further this discussion because it serves but one purpose, to divide us not unite us.

End of this dinlo discussion, I see exactly where you are headed in this conversation and it will not end well because it serves zero purpose. No need to respond, I will not read it nor respond, waste of my time.

Sorry if I have offended you, but the question was how to recognize Roma ancestry by DNA testing. Of course, everybody is free to identify by other means or self proclaim.

[Donald Locke]

@ Timothy and anyone else who maybe interested.
I have started to map the Colonial American Romanichal male lineages whom are proven to carry Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 with the DYS 425 = 0 null marker mutation. Obviously not all Rrom carry H1a - M82, but by mapping out the most distant paternal ancestor of those who do carry M82, shows a distinct concentration of male lineages carrying M82 from Colonial Virginia.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zAl-60fH2ejQ.kUkhVD3kaR48

I then expanded that map to include all Rromany in
H1a - M82 with the 425 = 0 null mutation for a world map.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zAl-60fH2ejQ.kicA_KR5sK5E

[T E Peterman]

When it comes to Family Finder matches from further back than say the last 5 or 6 generations, you will miss most of them. If the Roma admix occurred during colonial times on just one line of ancestry, I would be quite surprised if you found any Roma FF matches.

Timothy Peterman