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Old 12th December 2014, 09:35 PM
PNGarrison PNGarrison is offline
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Ancient mtDNA from the northern fringe of the Neolithic farming expansion in Europe

From that meeting issue. This article looks like one that people will be interested in.

Ancient mitochondrial DNA from the northern fringe of the Neolithic farming expansion in Europe sheds light on the dispersion process

Helena Malmström, Anna Linderholm, Pontus Skoglund, Jan Storå, Per Sjödin, M. Thomas P. Gilbert, Gunilla Holmlund, Eske Willerslev, Mattias Jakobsson, Kerstin Lidén, Anders Götherström
DOI: 10.1098/rstb.2013.0373Published 8 December 2014
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1660/20130373


The European Neolithization process started around 12 000 years ago in the Near East. The introduction of agriculture spread north and west throughout Europe and a key question has been if this was brought about by migrating individuals, by an exchange of ideas or a by a mixture of these. The earliest farming evidence in Scandinavia is found within the Funnel Beaker Culture complex (Trichterbecherkultur, TRB) which represents the northernmost extension of Neolithic farmers in Europe. The TRB coexisted for almost a millennium with hunter–gatherers of the Pitted Ware Cultural complex (PWC). If migration was a substantial part of the Neolithization, even the northerly TRB community would display a closer genetic affinity to other farmer populations than to hunter–gatherer populations. We deep-sequenced the mitochondrial hypervariable region 1 from seven farmers (six TRB and one Battle Axe complex, BAC) and 13 hunter–gatherers (PWC) and authenticated the sequences using postmortem DNA damage patterns. A comparison with 124 previously published sequences from prehistoric Europe shows that the TRB individuals share a close affinity to Central European farmer populations, and that they are distinct from hunter–gatherer groups, including the geographically close and partially contemporary PWC that show a close affinity to the European Mesolithic hunter–gatherers.
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Old 13th December 2014, 02:01 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNGarrison View Post
From that meeting issue. This article looks like one that people will be interested in.

Ancient mitochondrial DNA from the northern fringe of the Neolithic farming expansion in Europe sheds light on the dispersion process

Helena Malmström, Anna Linderholm, Pontus Skoglund, Jan Storå, Per Sjödin, M. Thomas P. Gilbert, Gunilla Holmlund, Eske Willerslev, Mattias Jakobsson, Kerstin Lidén, Anders Götherström
DOI: 10.1098/rstb.2013.0373Published 8 December 2014
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1660/20130373


The European Neolithization process started around 12 000 years ago in the Near East. The introduction of agriculture spread north and west throughout Europe and a key question has been if this was brought about by migrating individuals, by an exchange of ideas or a by a mixture of these. The earliest farming evidence in Scandinavia is found within the Funnel Beaker Culture complex (Trichterbecherkultur, TRB) which represents the northernmost extension of Neolithic farmers in Europe. The TRB coexisted for almost a millennium with hunter–gatherers of the Pitted Ware Cultural complex (PWC). If migration was a substantial part of the Neolithization, even the northerly TRB community would display a closer genetic affinity to other farmer populations than to hunter–gatherer populations. We deep-sequenced the mitochondrial hypervariable region 1 from seven farmers (six TRB and one Battle Axe complex, BAC) and 13 hunter–gatherers (PWC) and authenticated the sequences using postmortem DNA damage patterns. A comparison with 124 previously published sequences from prehistoric Europe shows that the TRB individuals share a close affinity to Central European farmer populations, and that they are distinct from hunter–gatherer groups, including the geographically close and partially contemporary PWC that show a close affinity to the European Mesolithic hunter–gatherers.
Why is there no YDNA in these studies?
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Old 13th December 2014, 12:24 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNGarrison View Post
From that meeting issue. This article looks like one that people will be interested in.

Ancient mitochondrial DNA from the northern fringe of the Neolithic farming expansion in Europe sheds light on the dispersion process

Helena Malmström, Anna Linderholm, Pontus Skoglund, Jan Storå, Per Sjödin, M. Thomas P. Gilbert, Gunilla Holmlund, Eske Willerslev, Mattias Jakobsson, Kerstin Lidén, Anders Götherström
DOI: 10.1098/rstb.2013.0373Published 8 December 2014
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1660/20130373


The European Neolithization process started around 12 000 years ago in the Near East. The introduction of agriculture spread north and west throughout Europe and a key question has been if this was brought about by migrating individuals, by an exchange of ideas or a by a mixture of these. The earliest farming evidence in Scandinavia is found within the Funnel Beaker Culture complex (Trichterbecherkultur, TRB) which represents the northernmost extension of Neolithic farmers in Europe. The TRB coexisted for almost a millennium with hunter–gatherers of the Pitted Ware Cultural complex (PWC). If migration was a substantial part of the Neolithization, even the northerly TRB community would display a closer genetic affinity to other farmer populations than to hunter–gatherer populations. We deep-sequenced the mitochondrial hypervariable region 1 from seven farmers (six TRB and one Battle Axe complex, BAC) and 13 hunter–gatherers (PWC) and authenticated the sequences using postmortem DNA damage patterns. A comparison with 124 previously published sequences from prehistoric Europe shows that the TRB individuals share a close affinity to Central European farmer populations, and that they are distinct from hunter–gatherer groups, including the geographically close and partially contemporary PWC that show a close affinity to the European Mesolithic hunter–gatherers.
This is what I don't understand. These CE farmers are descended from hunter-gatherers also. It is not as if they came from Mars. We are all descended from hunter-gatherers.
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Old 13th December 2014, 01:21 PM
T E Peterman T E Peterman is offline
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They are descended from Near Eastern Hunter Gatherers who practiced that economy prior to 10,000 BC. The H-G in Anatolia were among the first to practice simple farming & build simple towns. By maybe 7000 BC, much of Anatolia was practicing farming & the population was expanding. They had many of the modern farm animals EXCEPT the horse. This group crossed into the Balkans prior to 6000 BC & established a civilization or cultural complex called Old Europe. This grew to include much of modern day Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia & Romania. The civilization declined sharply after about 4000 BC & was gone by 3900 BC. In its place were newcomers who rode horses. A new cultural complex came to be that was composed of agricultural practices, including the horse. My understanding is that the men of Old Europe were likely an Anatolian mix of the E1b1b, G and J haplogroups. These can be found in the Balkans until this day. The newcomers on horseback most likely came from the steppe & were most likely R1b, all stemming from a population that we can now call Ancient North Eurasian.

Pioneers/ refugees from Old Europe may have been among those who spread the neolithic from Old Europe across much of the continent. Many of these were likely G2a. Later, during the early Bronze Age, R1b would follow. The Mesolithic population that preceded them may have been of the I haplogroup, or the G haplogroup. The 7,000 year old haplogroup from Spain belonged to the C haplogroup, which may indicate an early migration from India or Arabia during the Upper Paleolithic.

Timothy Peterman
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Old 13th December 2014, 03:12 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by T E Peterman View Post
They are descended from Near Eastern Hunter Gatherers who practiced that economy prior to 10,000 BC. The H-G in Anatolia were among the first to practice simple farming & build simple towns. By maybe 7000 BC, much of Anatolia was practicing farming & the population was expanding. They had many of the modern farm animals EXCEPT the horse. This group crossed into the Balkans prior to 6000 BC & established a civilization or cultural complex called Old Europe. This grew to include much of modern day Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia & Romania. The civilization declined sharply after about 4000 BC & was gone by 3900 BC. In its place were newcomers who rode horses. A new cultural complex came to be that was composed of agricultural practices, including the horse. My understanding is that the men of Old Europe were likely an Anatolian mix of the E1b1b, G and J haplogroups. These can be found in the Balkans until this day. The newcomers on horseback most likely came from the steppe & were most likely R1b, all stemming from a population that we can now call Ancient North Eurasian.

Pioneers/ refugees from Old Europe may have been among those who spread the neolithic from Old Europe across much of the continent. Many of these were likely G2a. Later, during the early Bronze Age, R1b would follow. The Mesolithic population that preceded them may have been of the I haplogroup, or the G haplogroup. The 7,000 year old haplogroup from Spain belonged to the C haplogroup, which may indicate an early migration from India or Arabia during the Upper Paleolithic.

Timothy Peterman
How can they see the difference between one set hunter-gatherers and another. It is a bit speculative at most.
Some posters say that L23 diversity is highest in Bulgaria. So it is possible that L51 was born in Italy.
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Old 13th December 2014, 03:23 PM
T E Peterman T E Peterman is offline
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And if L23 originated in Bulgaria, presumably right after M269 overran Old Europe, that would make sense. And if his son, L51 was born in Italy shortly after that, it would be plausible & it would NOT debunk the interpretation that the R1b patriline represents early Bronze Age or Chalcolithic invaders from the steppes.

Regarding the gentleman who is sure that L51 originated in Italy, where does he think L23 & M269 originated?

Timothy Peterman
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Old 13th December 2014, 03:42 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by T E Peterman View Post
And if L23 originated in Bulgaria, presumably right after M269 overran Old Europe, that would make sense. And if his son, L51 was born in Italy shortly after that, it would be plausible & it would NOT debunk the interpretation that the R1b patriline represents early Bronze Age or Chalcolithic invaders from the steppes.

Regarding the gentleman who is sure that L51 originated in Italy, where does he think L23 & M269 originated?

Timothy Peterman
For the oldest son DF27 to be born in Iberia his father P312 would have to be living there. For L21 to be born in France P312 would have to live there. For U152 to be born in Italy P312 would have to be living there. Where are the sons of P312 in the Steppe ?
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Old 13th December 2014, 04:23 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
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For the oldest son DF27 to be born in Iberia his father P312 would have to be living there. For L21 to be born in France P312 would have to live there. For U152 to be born in Italy P312 would have to be living there. Where are the sons of P312 in the Steppe ?
Why do you think it's the case that a father and son must be born in the same geographic area? Families move and sons aren't born where the father was born all the time. My grandfather was born in Sicily and my father was born in New Jersey.

Also, what makes you think that the DF27 son of Mr. P312 was born in Spain? Or that the L21 son of Mr. P312 was born in France? Do you actually think that it must be the case that the SNPs immediately downstream of P312 (DF27, L21, U152) must have occurred all in the same generation - occurred in men who were all sons of Mr. P312 and were born in different countries?

I doubt that's the case. It may suit your argument, but it seems much more likely that each of those three SNPs occurred in different generations descended from P312 and then moved over the course of perhaps a few more generations into the areas where they now are major subclades. Demographics, SNP development and migration don't occur in the neat manner in which you portray them.

Last edited by MMaddi; 13th December 2014 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 13th December 2014, 07:16 PM
PNGarrison PNGarrison is offline
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They distinguish hunter gatherers from farmers by isotopic studies of the bones. You get different isotopic patterns depending on what you eat. They can also tell from the artifacts present and bits of plant residue/animal bones in the sites. The archaeologists have known for a long time that farming and domestication of some species is seen earliest around and near today's Iraq. They mostly preferred the cultural diffusion account of the spread of these practices until the geneticists showed that new haplogroups were coming in with the new technologies.

The reason typing of Y chromosome is still rare is that it doesn't work on most samples. I hope that the practice of using Y-specific RNA probes to fish out the ancient Y fragments (like FT does for the Big Y) will spread to the archaeologists, we'll see more Y data.
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Old 14th December 2014, 01:40 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Why do you think it's the case that a father and son must be born in the same geographic area? Families move and sons aren't born where the father was born all the time. My grandfather was born in Sicily and my father was born in New Jersey.

Also, what makes you think that the DF27 son of Mr. P312 was born in Spain? Or that the L21 son of Mr. P312 was born in France? Do you actually think that it must be the case that the SNPs immediately downstream of P312 (DF27, L21, U152) must have occurred all in the same generation - occurred in men who were all sons of Mr. P312 and were born in different countries?

I doubt that's the case. It may suit your argument, but it seems much more likely that each of those three SNPs occurred in different generations descended from P312 and then moved over the course of perhaps a few more generations into the areas where they now are major subclades. Demographics, SNP development and migration don't occur in the neat manner in which you portray them.
I looked at the distribution of my own subclade today and put it in the same context as P312 in the past.We are seeing the surviving lines of P312 and I have looked at the diversity and distribution of those three subclades.
Some people move around more than others so that's why the Irish dna atlas wanted people whose G Grandparents came from the same area.Some of the names in the parishes and townlands have been there for hundreds of years.
Also people in America who are tested and say that their ancestors originated in Ireland are right because a lot of them have close dna matches here.
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