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  #51  
Old 11th December 2014, 09:35 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by T E Peterman View Post
All of those SNPs that define M269 show how far down it was from P297 & this list might not be complete. By your earlier statement that, during the H-G era, SNPs only came along every 400 to 500 years, if we use 400 years, that would place 17,200 years between P297 & the occurance of M269. 500 years would suggest 21,500 years. R1 is said to be a mere 18,500 years old. If we use your estimate of 135 years, that places a mere 5,805 years between P297 & M269.

Each of those 43 SNPs may have defined a split into two clades, but thanks to population bottlenecks & such, only M269 survived. Considering that the Neolithic began earlier in Anatolia, NW Iran and/or the Pontic steppe, the last dozen or so of those 43 SNPs may very well be the Neolithic SNPs that you are searching for.

The current SNP list at ISOGG makes it look like L23 was fairly close to M269 (two SNPs), & L51 was really close to L23 (one SNP). Five SNPs separate L51 from P311. U106 & P312 branch off without any intervening SNPs. All of this suggests to me that there wasn't much time between M269 & L11 (or P311) and also that there was a massive population expansion during this era. This points to either really late Neolithic, chalcolithic, or really early Bronze Age.

Timothy Peterman
Some people think that L51 had its origins in Italy. He is the ancestor of all P311. How is that connected to the Steppe?
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  #52  
Old 11th December 2014, 09:57 AM
T E Peterman T E Peterman is offline
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What evidence can they cite that shows L51 having origins in Italy? The haplogroup from which it originated (L23+, L51-) is found all over Anatolia, the Balkans, the Pontic Steppe, etc. If L51 originated in Italy, it was derived from an L23 man who had just moved in from the steppe (or other points many hundreds of miles east of Italy).

Timothy Peterman
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  #53  
Old 11th December 2014, 11:32 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by T E Peterman View Post
What evidence can they cite that shows L51 having origins in Italy? The haplogroup from which it originated (L23+, L51-) is found all over Anatolia, the Balkans, the Pontic Steppe, etc. If L51 originated in Italy, it was derived from an L23 man who had just moved in from the steppe (or other points many hundreds of miles east of Italy).

Timothy Peterman
If L51 originated in Italy it means the end of the PIE theory for R1b.
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  #54  
Old 11th December 2014, 11:45 AM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
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Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
Some people think that L51 had its origins in Italy. He is the ancestor of all P311. How is that connected to the Steppe?
The only person I know who believes that is an Italian genetic genealogist who believes that just about every major haplogroup found in Europe today originated in Italy. That's not what any scientist believes, based on the evidence.

This is what is called an agenda. Someone with an agenda, for some personal reason (usually irrational nationalism), looks at all the evidence from the viewpoint of his agenda and comes up with the conclusions that he had from before he looked at any evidence.

Does this sound familiar to you?
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  #55  
Old 11th December 2014, 11:51 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
The only person I know who believes that is an Italian genetic genealogist who believes that just about every major haplogroup found in Europe today originated in Italy. That's not what any scientist believes, based on the evidence.

This is what is called an agenda. Someone with an agenda, for some personal reason (usually irrational nationalism), looks at all the evidence from the viewpoint of his agenda and comes up with the conclusions that he had from before he looked at any evidence.

Does this sound familiar to you?
Some people think that they are ancestors were Lombards.
Does this sound familiar to you?
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  #56  
Old 11th December 2014, 12:23 PM
T E Peterman T E Peterman is offline
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Some people think their patrilineal ancestors were Helvetii; sounds very familiar to me

I might be sticking my neck out on a limb suggesting this, but at least my y-DNA is consistent with this bit of speculation on my part. I am R1b P312+ U152+ L20*.

Timothy Peterman
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  #57  
Old 11th December 2014, 12:37 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
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Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
Some people think that they are ancestors were Lombards.
Does this sound familiar to you?
I think it's most likely that my paternal line ancestors were Goths or Lombards, but that is certainly not proven. It's what's called a "working hypothesis" - the evidence I have so far supports that, but evidence that may come along in the future may force me to give up that hypothesis and adopt a different one. I won't bore you with the details, but when I have an updated working hypothesis, I'll be sure to inform you.

Or would you rather that I believe that U106 arose in Sicily 6,000 years ago and that my paternal line ancestors have been there all that time. I am just about eternally Sicilian! Sound familiar?
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  #58  
Old 11th December 2014, 12:38 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by T E Peterman View Post
Some people think their patrilineal ancestors were Helvetii; sounds very familiar to me

I might be sticking my neck out on a limb suggesting this, but at least my y-DNA is consistent with this bit of speculation on my part. I am R1b P312+ U152+ L20*.

Timothy Peterman
I think L20* was around a long time before the Helvetii originated.
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  #59  
Old 11th December 2014, 03:58 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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I think L20* was around a long time before the Helvetii originated.
"The Helvetii were a Gallic[2] tribe or tribal confederation[3] occupying most of the Swiss plateau at the time of their contact with the Roman Republic in the 1st century BC. According to Julius Caesar, the Helvetians were divided into four subgroups or pagi. Of these Caesar only names the Verbigeni and the Tigurini,[4] while Poseidonios mentions the Tigurini and the Tougeni (Τωυγενοί).[5] They feature prominently in the Commentaries on the Gallic War, with their failed migration attempt to southwestern Gaul (58 BC) serving as a catalyst for Caesar's conquest of Gaul."
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  #60  
Old 11th December 2014, 08:41 PM
T E Peterman T E Peterman is offline
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All that I can say is that my great grandfather, Josef Petermann was Swiss. He was born in Root, canton Luzern, Switzerland. The Petermann family has been in that town for many centuries. Even in the 1700s, Petermann was the most popular surname in town. The surname, in Switzerland, is found almost nowhere else. There are Germans with the surname but they are G2a. I think that in Root, there is a clear founder effect at work with the Petermann surname. Archaeological finds demonstrate that the town was likely in existence at the time of the Romans & was called Rota in Latin. There was an old slate quarry there that has been worked for centuries.

My Petermann line, unlike the Germans, is R1b L20*, which is strongest in the areas around the Alps (northern Italy & Switzerland), but is spread out thinly in other countries, including the Isles. my closest y-str matches are in Switzerland & some of my Big Y matches are from northern Italy.

When the Allemanni moved into Switzerland & set up shop, there were still plenty of Helvetii around. My guess is that the Allemanni gave the Petermann label to the Italo-Celtic inhabitants who were already in Root.

But no one knows for a fact whether the Helvetii were even L20. But it looks plausible to me.

Timothy Peterman
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