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  #121  
Old 5th December 2014, 06:35 AM
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I have no intention of reading the book because JM is one of the ABI (anywhere but Iberia) clan. Any book that you recommend has to do with your out "of the Steppe" with the IE obsession.
The fact that you have not read the current literature on this subject explains the nature of your posts.

If you want to read only that which supports the old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge hypothesis, you will be forced to read stuff from six to eight years and longer ago. Even the men who wrote that stuff have moved on. For example, you won't catch Dr. Spencer Wells, Dr. Jim Wilson, or Dr. Michael Hammer promoting it these days, although six or eight years ago all of them believed R1b spent the LGM in Franco-Cantabria. Science involves the constant acquisition of knowledge. Once scientists learn something that indicates their old ideas were wrong, they move on and adjust their thinking to the new information.

You simply refuse to even read the new information.

That is one reason why your posts are just not worthy of serious consideration.

Declaring that there is an "Anywhere But Iberia" clan, and that Jean Manco is part of it, is a despicable attempt to discredit her work and has no basis in fact.

You are the only one in any of these discussions with an obsession and a pretty transparent agenda.
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  #122  
Old 5th December 2014, 06:47 AM
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Even the birds in the trees know that P311 did not originate in the Steppe.
It could be true that bird brains think they know that, but no one else does.

Take a look at the maps in Busby et al. The greatest frequency of R1bxS127 (L11) is on the west coast of the Black Sea. So that is where the SNP trail leads. L11 likely arose somewhere between the Black Sea and Central Europe.

Besides, the issue is not really whether or not our R1b ancestors were already mostly L11+ when they entered Europe. The issues are when they entered and what the circumstances were.

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JP Mallory has a lot of stuff wrong in my opinion.
Have you actually read any of his work?

Have you read Anthony, Manco, Renfrew, Ivanov and Gamkrelidze, Gimbutas, Harrison and Heyd, or any of the experts who deal with this topic?
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  #123  
Old 5th December 2014, 07:34 AM
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It could be true that bird brains think they know that, but no one else does.

Take a look at the maps in Busby et al. The greatest frequency of R1bxS127 (L11) is on the west coast of the Black Sea. So that is where the SNP trail leads. L11 likely arose somewhere between the Black Sea and Central Europe.

Besides, the issue is not really whether or not our R1b ancestors were already mostly L11+ when they entered Europe. The issues are when they entered and what the circumstances were.



Have you actually read any of his work?

Have you read Anthony, Manco, Renfrew, Ivanov and Gamkrelidze, Gimbutas, Harrison and Heyd, or any of the experts who deal with this topic?
The majority of R1b males in western Europe are all L11. I bought Mallory's book.

Last edited by 1798; 5th December 2014 at 07:37 AM.
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  #124  
Old 5th December 2014, 09:22 AM
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"ABSTRACT
Recently, the debate on the origins of the major European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 has reignited, and opinion has moved away from Palaeolithic origins to the notion of a younger Neolithic spread of these chromosomes from the Near East. Here, we address this debate by investigating frequency patterns and diversity in the largest collection of R1b1b2-M269 chromosomes yet assembled. Our analysis reveals no geographical trends in diversity, in contradiction to expectation under the Neolithic hypothesis, and suggests an alternative explanation for the apparent cline in diversity recently described. We further investigate the young, STR-based time to the most recent common ancestor estimates proposed so far for R-M269-related lineages and find evidence for an appreciable effect of microsatellite choice on age estimates. As a consequence, the existing data and tools are insufficient to make credible estimates for the age of this haplogroup, and conclusions about the timing of its origin and dispersal should be viewed with a large degree of caution."

Busby et al 2011.
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  #125  
Old 5th December 2014, 12:15 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
"ABSTRACT
Recently, the debate on the origins of the major European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 has reignited, and opinion has moved away from Palaeolithic origins to the notion of a younger Neolithic spread of these chromosomes from the Near East. Here, we address this debate by investigating frequency patterns and diversity in the largest collection of R1b1b2-M269 chromosomes yet assembled. Our analysis reveals no geographical trends in diversity, in contradiction to expectation under the Neolithic hypothesis, and suggests an alternative explanation for the apparent cline in diversity recently described. We further investigate the young, STR-based time to the most recent common ancestor estimates proposed so far for R-M269-related lineages and find evidence for an appreciable effect of microsatellite choice on age estimates. As a consequence, the existing data and tools are insufficient to make credible estimates for the age of this haplogroup, and conclusions about the timing of its origin and dispersal should be viewed with a large degree of caution."

Busby et al 2011.
Busby's maps of M269 and L11 look similar. RxS127 shows a hotspot in what looks like Bulgaria.
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  #126  
Old 6th December 2014, 02:47 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
The fact that you have not read the current literature on this subject explains the nature of your posts.

If you want to read only that which supports the old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge hypothesis, you will be forced to read stuff from six to eight years and longer ago. Even the men who wrote that stuff have moved on. For example, you won't catch Dr. Spencer Wells, Dr. Jim Wilson, or Dr. Michael Hammer promoting it these days, although six or eight years ago all of them believed R1b spent the LGM in Franco-Cantabria. Science involves the constant acquisition of knowledge. Once scientists learn something that indicates their old ideas were wrong, they move on and adjust their thinking to the new information.

You simply refuse to even read the new information.

That is one reason why your posts are just not worthy of serious consideration.

Declaring that there is an "Anywhere But Iberia" clan, and that Jean Manco is part of it, is a despicable attempt to discredit her work and has no basis in fact.

You are the only one in any of these discussions with an obsession and a pretty transparent agenda.
The fact that R1b-M343 is estimated to be 20-24,000 years old then R1b was in a refuge. Which refuge is a matter for debate. I asked a simple question and no-one could answer it. Which R1b SNPs are associated with the Neolithic?
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  #127  
Old 6th December 2014, 01:53 PM
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M269 bottleneck 43 SNPs. L11 bottleneck 6 SNPs. That is both of them out of the Neolithic Revolution. So it has to be the SNPs downstream of these. That's the way I see it. The Tsunami of SNPs arrived after the birth of P311.
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