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  #11  
Old 22nd April 2007, 01:51 PM
vraatyah vraatyah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambalaia32
Isn't U5 SWEDISH?
Indeed, that 25-ky haplogroup looks very Swedish
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  #12  
Old 4th May 2007, 07:07 AM
johnraciti
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We are all - U5a1a exact matches in our family

http://www.geocities.com/johnraciti2/dna/image011.jpg

Are we ancient Nords or Brits? Or are we ancient North Germanic Danish-Germans [Anglo-Saxons] or Lombardic...? Some how we made it to Sicily. Maybe through the Normans...

U5a1a - 157C,192T,256T,270T,320T,399G
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  #13  
Old 4th May 2007, 02:21 PM
Wena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnraciti
http://www.geocities.com/johnraciti2/dna/image011.jpg

Are we ancient Nords or Brits? Or are we ancient North Germanic Danish-Germans [Anglo-Saxons] or Lombardic...? Some how we made it to Sicily. Maybe through the Normans...

U5a1a - 157C,192T,256T,270T,320T,399G
Very nice photo and family, thanks for sharing. Here are some from your cousins up north:

Wedding in Kautokeino Norway:
http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/514-K.htm

A 19th century engraving of Saami people:
http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/507-A.htm

Mothers and children:
http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/514-J.htm

Family:
http://www.photius.com/images/fi02_05a.jpg

Woman with cradle from 1900:
http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/513-B.htm

Woman with reindeer:
http://www.fotoagent.dk/single_pictu...e/Im001415.jpg

Saami woman:
http://www.av-senteret.no/nettskolen...19/Image86.gif

This is an old photo of a group of nomads in Swedish Lappland:

http://www.homepagez.com/morningstar/Sami.jpg

Enjoy!
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  #14  
Old 6th May 2007, 02:54 AM
PDHOTLEN PDHOTLEN is offline
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K vs U

Haplogroup K is a branch within super-haplogroup U (the way I saw it explained somewhere). It seems like most of the German U's were or are from the southern part of the country - but not exclusively so.

5000 years is just yesterday, when it comes to our mtDNA evolution. It looks to me like the various branches and twigs of haplogroup U moved northward thru France, after the big melt, and then fanned out to the Britiish Isles, Scandinavia, and eastward north of the Alps.

Well, I'm just speculating...

U5b2
HVR1: 16279T & 16519C
HVR2: 73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C & 315.1C

Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 6th May 2007 at 02:56 AM.
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  #15  
Old 6th May 2007, 04:12 PM
Wena
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Study from 2005 suggests deep ancestry between the northern populations in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDHOTLEN
Haplogroup K is a branch within super-haplogroup U (the way I saw it explained somewhere). It seems like most of the German U's were or are from the southern part of the country - but not exclusively so.

5000 years is just yesterday, when it comes to our mtDNA evolution. It looks to me like the various branches and twigs of haplogroup U moved northward thru France, after the big melt, and then fanned out to the Britiish Isles, Scandinavia, and eastward north of the Alps.

Well, I'm just speculating...

U5b2
HVR1: 16279T & 16519C
HVR2: 73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C & 315.1C

More speculations:

The text under is from the abstract of this interesting study of ancient DNA done in England, where they found early genetic relations between U5 in Britain with the populations in Scandinavia and Estonia (that probably also belonged to the historical Saami areas, still today there are people in Estonia that call themselves Saami).

?We find evidence for shared ancestry between the earliest sites (predating Viking invasions) with modern populations across the north of Europe from Norway to Estonia, possibly reflecting common ancestors dating back to the last glacial epoch. This is in contrast with a late Saxon site in Norwich, where the genetic signature is consistent with more recent immigrations from the south, possibly as part of the Saxon invasions.?
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/msj013v1.pdf


Britain was populated about 13000 years BP and from what I read the authors speculate if U5a might have developed in Britain and therefore is oldest there, before it moved northwards even over the ice-bridge that went from The British Isles and Scandinavia under and after the glacial maximum. The theory they proposes is supported by similar archaeological findings in Britain and Estonia from Mesolithic time.

U5b was present in ancient (4.2%) and early Saxon (3.2%) sites, but not in late Saxon sites and U5b is found in 1.2% of the British population. U5a1 was present in 8.3% of ancient sites and 9.7% in early Saxon sites. In modern Britain U5a1 is found in 2.7% of the population.

It is hard for me to tell where these genes developed, but there were several glacial refugees during the LGM than Iberia (early Magdalenian culture), there were also at least one eastern European refugee matching with the early Gravettian culture.

There seems to have been at least two paths these early people migrated into Scandinavia, first an early migration that match with the Hamburgian and Danish Bromme cultures and in Norway possible these are parallels to the Fosna-Hensbacka culture. Is it possible that these early people migrated northwards before 10000 years BP, there is findings both along the Norwegian coast and a 10000 year old settlement found in the arctic that supports this theory.

Then there is a later migration with the Ahrensburgian culture from the west via Lithuania and Estonia to the north, this fits with the Komsa culture up north and this might have come from Britain. An argument for this theory is that these people could have brought with them mtDNA V that was present in the ancient Britons (4.2%) and in the early Saxon sites (6.5%). The U5b that later mutated to U5b1b (16144, 16148, 16189, 16270) might have come with these migration.

There is a study done in Lund Sweden that have found a significant frequency of U5b1 without the mutation 16148, therefore the Saami genes in Lund cannot have migrated from the north to the south. The younger U5b1b (with 16148) is only found up north. Unfortunately this study that is done by Kittles et.al.(1999) have a systematic error in the Swedish sample so it cannot be concluded anything from it, hopefully there will be done a replication study of the oldest population in Lund. It was reported in 1882 that Älvdal in Dalarne County (Sweden) have a large Saami population, so there are other possibilities to check this out.

I guess such studies and many others must be done with help of in-depth-genealogy to be able to tell where U5a and U5b have developed. Ancient DNA is of course one-way to address the subject. I do not know if ancient U5a and U5b have been found in Iberia.

If you take a look at table 2 in the article you can see that mtDNA K was found in 2.1 % of the ancient sample, and in 5.9% of the late Saxon sample, it has increased steadily and today it is found in 6.6% of the British population.

This, of course do not explain why K is more frequent in northern than in southern Germany.

Last edited by Wena; 6th May 2007 at 04:20 PM.
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  #16  
Old 6th May 2007, 04:49 PM
Wena
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These are illustrations of the melting of the ice that connected the British islands with Scandinavia.

The ice bridge 18000 years BP
http://www.norwaymyway.com/images/ma...6000bc_580.jpg

The ice 10000 years BP
http://www.norwaymyway.com/images/ma...6000bc_580.jpg

Was the doggerland still there 10000 years BP?

If you read page 18 the authors of the article in the previous posting mention several possibilities about how Scandinavia was populated/repopulated.

Some people might have stayed there during the LGM, others moved south and repopulated the area later on, some might have crossed the land bridge (doggerland) between Scandinavia and Britain when the ice retreated. The article mention that this doggerland might have lasted longer than previously believed.
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  #17  
Old 6th May 2007, 10:18 PM
J Man J Man is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sault Ste. Marie Ontario, Canada
Posts: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wena
More speculations:

The text under is from the abstract of this interesting study of ancient DNA done in England, where they found early genetic relations between U5 in Britain with the populations in Scandinavia and Estonia (that probably also belonged to the historical Saami areas, still today there are people in Estonia that call themselves Saami).

?We find evidence for shared ancestry between the earliest sites (predating Viking invasions) with modern populations across the north of Europe from Norway to Estonia, possibly reflecting common ancestors dating back to the last glacial epoch. This is in contrast with a late Saxon site in Norwich, where the genetic signature is consistent with more recent immigrations from the south, possibly as part of the Saxon invasions.?
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/msj013v1.pdf


Britain was populated about 13000 years BP and from what I read the authors speculate if U5a might have developed in Britain and therefore is oldest there, before it moved northwards even over the ice-bridge that went from The British Isles and Scandinavia under and after the glacial maximum. The theory they proposes is supported by similar archaeological findings in Britain and Estonia from Mesolithic time.

U5b was present in ancient (4.2%) and early Saxon (3.2%) sites, but not in late Saxon sites and U5b is found in 1.2% of the British population. U5a1 was present in 8.3% of ancient sites and 9.7% in early Saxon sites. In modern Britain U5a1 is found in 2.7% of the population.

It is hard for me to tell where these genes developed, but there were several glacial refugees during the LGM than Iberia (early Magdalenian culture), there were also at least one eastern European refugee matching with the early Gravettian culture.

There seems to have been at least two paths these early people migrated into Scandinavia, first an early migration that match with the Hamburgian and Danish Bromme cultures and in Norway possible these are parallels to the Fosna-Hensbacka culture. Is it possible that these early people migrated northwards before 10000 years BP, there is findings both along the Norwegian coast and a 10000 year old settlement found in the arctic that supports this theory.

Then there is a later migration with the Ahrensburgian culture from the west via Lithuania and Estonia to the north, this fits with the Komsa culture up north and this might have come from Britain. An argument for this theory is that these people could have brought with them mtDNA V that was present in the ancient Britons (4.2%) and in the early Saxon sites (6.5%). The U5b that later mutated to U5b1b (16144, 16148, 16189, 16270) might have come with these migration.

There is a study done in Lund Sweden that have found a significant frequency of U5b1 without the mutation 16148, therefore the Saami genes in Lund cannot have migrated from the north to the south. The younger U5b1b (with 16148) is only found up north. Unfortunately this study that is done by Kittles et.al.(1999) have a systematic error in the Swedish sample so it cannot be concluded anything from it, hopefully there will be done a replication study of the oldest population in Lund. It was reported in 1882 that Älvdal in Dalarne County (Sweden) have a large Saami population, so there are other possibilities to check this out.

I guess such studies and many others must be done with help of in-depth-genealogy to be able to tell where U5a and U5b have developed. Ancient DNA is of course one-way to address the subject. I do not know if ancient U5a and U5b have been found in Iberia.

If you take a look at table 2 in the article you can see that mtDNA K was found in 2.1 % of the ancient sample, and in 5.9% of the late Saxon sample, it has increased steadily and today it is found in 6.6% of the British population.

This, of course do not explain why K is more frequent in northern than in southern Germany.

Very interesting speculations. I agree with a lot of what you say here in ways. I would also like to find out in which glacial refuge U5 (more specifically U5a) originated. Since CHeddar Man from Mesolithic Britain was U5a maybe it developed in Iberia and migrated straight up to Britain after the ice age or maybe it did come from somewhere else.

Where did you read that U5a may have originated in Britain?
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  #18  
Old 7th May 2007, 09:22 AM
Johnserrat Johnserrat is offline
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Have you seen Achilli's paper dealing with the similarities between Saami and Berber mtDNA?

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the ?out of Africa? exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../42165.web.pdf

John
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  #19  
Old 7th May 2007, 11:19 AM
J Man J Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnserrat
Have you seen Achilli's paper dealing with the similarities between Saami and Berber mtDNA?

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the ?out of Africa? exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../42165.web.pdf

John

Yes I have seen that before it was interesting. I have a strong feeling that the physical similarities between the ancient Cro-Magnons of Europe and the Afalou people of Northwest Africa may have been due to their shared haplogroup U ancestry. In Europe there was a lot of U5 and in North Africa some U5 and a lot of U6.
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  #20  
Old 17th May 2007, 12:32 PM
vraatyah vraatyah is offline
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2 Wena (secretly)

it's hard to convince this Western folk in anything which contradicts that there was a glorious path of the civilization from West to East and it was only in this direction.
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