Big-Y - mother's paternal side

[mlcarson]

I've done a Y-111 test on a male 1st cousin of my mother to get Y-DNA results on my mother's side of the family (Grandfather is dead). The Y-111 indicates a R-M269 haplogroup which is probably a R-U106 and maybe a R-L48. I would have purchased a Big-Y for the $425 price that the coupon RAMBigY2017 would have gotten it down to it but it stopped working a day before I got the results back. I'm torn again on doing one of these tests because of the costs -- especially when it's not my own. My own came back with a haplogroup I-BY3095.

My understanding of the R-M269 group is that it's a bit more relevant to genealogy because of the more recent changes. It's a bit tempting to just do a R1B-L48 SNP pack and hope that validates the U-106 and L48 but then that might just point to another major subclade which would require more testing and repeat. Because of all of the existing branches, is this even more of a reason to do Big-Y and have it done with in one test?

[MMaddi]

If knowing the most downstream subclade possible, including private SNPs that relate only to the last few generations of the paternal line, is important to you, then Big Y is the way to go. A SNP pack will only get you so far down the branch.

Big Y is expected to be available during the holiday sale (mid-November to Dec. 31), as in past years, for as low as $425 or even $400, with the use of Holiday Rewards coupons. Consider that and, if you want Big Y done, save up each month to order during the sale.

If your mother's cousin has DYS492=13 (66th marker), he can join the R1b-U106 Project - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about - without a SNP test. However, we expect members joining on the basis of DYS492=13 to order a SNP test ASAP to confirm that they are in fact positive for U106 or a downstream subclade.

If you decide against Big Y and you tell me your mother's cousin's counts for the following markers (all included in the first 67), I can possibly advise you which SNP pack might be appropriate:

DYS390
DYS447
DYS464d
DYS460
H4
DYS425
DYS492

[mlcarson]

I've got the money for the Big-Y available but hate overspending -- there may be a correlation in that.

DYS390 = 22
DYS447 = 25
DYS464d = 17
DYS460 = 11
H4 = 10
DYS425= 12
DYS492 = 13

[MMaddi]

I've got the money for the Big-Y available but hate overspending -- there may be a correlation in that.

DYS390 = 22
DYS447 = 25
DYS464d = 17
DYS460 = 11
H4 = 10
DYS425= 12
DYS492 = 13

With those counts, you're definitely not Z326+. Based on DYS390=22 and H4=10, you may be Z8+. But you don't have the expected counts for someone who's Z8+ for DYS447 (24) or DYS464d (18).

You'd be taking a chance to order the Z8 SNP pack. So, either order the new backbone SNP pack, which is on sale for $89 for about another week, or the R1b - L48xL47xZ8xZ326 SNP Pack, which costs $119. There is about a 15-20% chance that you're not L48+ with those marker counts. So, the safest course is to order the new backbone SNP pack. But then, in order to get further down your branch to about probably 1,000-1,500 years ago, you'd have to spend another $119 for whatever downstream U106 SNP pack the backbone pack results point you too.

Also, look at your matches at 37 markers and above and see if any of them have tested positive for SNPs downstream from U106. If you see any L48+ matches, then I would be inclined to go with the L48xL47xZ8xZ326 SNP Pack, realizing that it's possible that you're L48-.

Keep in mind that, if you eventually order Big Y down the road, you'd essentially have wasted whatever you spend on SNP packs. Big Y is the right test for any man, no matter what his haplogroup; Big Y will give you positive results whatever your haplogroup/subclade. And it will get you all the way down your branch, to SNPs that are unique to your recent paternal line ancestry. If the price is too much for you, consider saving up each month and ordering it during the holiday sale (mid-November to Dec. 31), when you can order Big Y for as low as $425 or $400.

[mlcarson]

No matches at Y-111.
Y67- 23 matches
GD = 6, R-Z9
GD = 7, R- BY18931

Y37 - 23 matches
GD = 4, R-Z9 - same as above

So, I've only got two people who have done further testing but they both go down to the L48 tree.

If I'm reading the tree right then the branches from L48 to BY18931 are:
L48-Z9-S271/Z30-Z27-Z345-Z2-S16218-S21301-BY18931

How likely is that to be the right path?
Order an R-S16218 and roll the dice for $39?
Order an R-Z9 and an R-S16218 for $78 and hope that at least one comes back positive?
Order an R1B-L48 SNP pack which includes everything down to S16218 on the L48 tree?
Or splurge and get the Big-Y?

I'm kind of thinking the R-S16218 gamble could be worth it and I could then always take the Big-Y at the end of the year during the discount. Is a single SNP test actually enough for FTDNA to call the haplogroup?

[MMaddi]

No matches at Y-111.
Y67- 23 matches
GD = 6, R-Z9
GD = 7, R- BY18931

Y37 - 23 matches
GD = 4, R-Z9 - same as above

So, I've only got two people who have done further testing but they both go down to the L48 tree.

If I'm reading the tree right then the branches from L48 to BY18931 are:
L48-Z9-S271/Z30-Z27-Z345-Z2-S16218-S21301-BY18931

How likely is that to be the right path?
Order an R-S16218 and roll the dice for $39?
Order an R-Z9 and an R-S16218 for $78 and hope that at least one comes back positive?
Order an R1B-L48 SNP pack which includes everything down to S16218 on the L48 tree?
Or splurge and get the Big-Y?

I'm kind of thinking the R-S16218 gamble could be worth it and I could then always take the Big-Y at the end of the year during the discount. Is a single SNP test actually enough for FTDNA to call the haplogroup?

It sounds like you really want to order Big Y, but are just uneasy about spending that amount of money. It also sounds like you will eventually end up ordering Big Y.

As I wrote above, spending money on any single SNP or SNP pack is wasting the money if you plan on ordering Big Y. But at least by ordering S16218 as a single SNP, you're limiting the wastage to $39. That still defeats your purpose of not overspending.

Also, Dr. Iain McDonald, the co-administrator of the R1b-U106 Project responsible for estimating subclade ages, estimates that S16218 was "born" about 191 BC (range of 1076 BC — 549 AD) - see http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html. So, knowing your cousin's 1,800 year old subclade should be compared to knowing his private SNPs with Big Y as recently as the last 200 or so years. Is that information worth $39 to you and him?

It's your money, so I can't tell you what to do with it. If it were me, I would be patient and save up the money to order Big Y at the sale price, along with a Holiday Reward coupon, at the end of the year.

[rwaldrop]

No matches at Y-111.
Y67- 23 matches
GD = 6, R-Z9
GD = 7, R- BY18931

Y37 - 23 matches
GD = 4, R-Z9 - same as above

So, I've only got two people who have done further testing but they both go down to the L48 tree.

If I'm reading the tree right then the branches from L48 to BY18931 are:
L48-Z9-S271/Z30-Z27-Z345-Z2-S16218-S21301-BY18931

How likely is that to be the right path?
Order an R-S16218 and roll the dice for $39?
Order an R-Z9 and an R-S16218 for $78 and hope that at least one comes back positive?
Order an R1B-L48 SNP pack which includes everything down to S16218 on the L48 tree?
Or splurge and get the Big-Y?

I'm kind of thinking the R-S16218 gamble could be worth it and I could then always take the Big-Y at the end of the year during the discount. Is a single SNP test actually enough for FTDNA to call the haplogroup?

I know this post is a month old but my father's y67 kit matches S16218 tested individuals and the common surname for them is Shields descended from Ireland in 1600s

[mlcarson]

R-S16218

I did a single SNP test for R-S16218 and tested positive for it today so now have a haplogroup of R-S16218. That puts me as far down the tree as possible before needing a Big-Y test. I've now also ordered that mainly because of the sale price. It's a savings of $180 - $38 for the SNP test so still a $142 savings versus the price when I started this thread. I also got results more than a month earlier than I otherwise would have so I'm good with that.

I don't match Shields in any of the Y-STR tests but do match the name Wyatt a lot. I'm expecting a BY18931 call with the Big-Y test but am not as certain on that one. None of my STR matches are that close and not many have done a Big-Y.

[rwaldrop]

I ordered big-y on the first day of the sale batch 773. Have you joined the R1b and u106 groups? I will be sending in my father's results for the big tree. http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2385&star

[mlcarson]

My Big-Y is in batch 774. The Lab procedure is listed as HiYNGS -- is this the same as it's always been? I don't remember that on my first Big-Y test.

I've been a member of the R1B and U106 groups since the Y-111 STR results came in.

The Big Tree link confuses me. I recognize Z2 as being above S16218 but see an intermediate block of 22277095-G-A not present in FTDNA.

R1B-U106->Z30->Z27->Z345->Z2->S16218: FTDNA
R1B-U106->Z381->Z301->L48->Z9->Z30->Z2->22277095-G-A: Big-Tree


My paternal haplogroup is I-BY3095 so the Big Tree wasn't an option. I like it better than the Y-Full so far. I'll definitely submit my Big-Y results to the Big Tree when I get them. Is it still recommended to have Y-full also do an analysis of the Big-Y results like it was in the I-M223 tree?

[MMaddi]

My Big-Y is in batch 774. The Lab procedure is listed as HiYNGS -- is this the same as it's always been? I don't remember that on my first Big-Y test.

I've been a member of the R1B and U106 groups since the Y-111 STR results came in.

The Big Tree link confuses me. I recognize Z2 as being above S16218 but see an intermediate block of 22277095-G-A not present in FTDNA.

R1B-U106->Z30->Z27->Z345->Z2->S16218: FTDNA
R1B-U106->Z381->Z301->L48->Z9->Z30->Z2->22277095-G-A: Big-Tree


My paternal haplogroup is I-BY3095 so the Big Tree wasn't an option. I like it better than the Y-Full so far. I'll definitely submit my Big-Y results to the Big Tree when I get them. Is it still recommended to have Y-full also do an analysis of the Big-Y results like it was in the I-M223 tree?

Here's a link to the official U106 tree maintained by project co-administrator Ray Wing - https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o - which you can download as an Excel file and open in any spreadsheet program. Also, here's the link - http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/tree.html - to a U106 tree in graphical format by project co-administrator Iain McDonald. These two trees are the most up-to-date and accurate trees for U106. Finally, this is the link - https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults - for the project results table, where we've grouped members according to their test results, including Big Y results. The page size is at the default 500 results/page. It works better to search for specific SNPs/subclades if you set it to 4,000 results/page.

Searching for S16218 in the results table, I find only one subclade listed - Z30>Z27>Z345>Z2>S16218>BY18931, S21301>. Of course, once the Big Y results come in for you mother's paternal side, we may see that you share singletons already found in some of the men in the Z30>Z27>Z345>Z2>S16218 group, which would create a new subclade.

As far as having your BAM file analyzed, the U106 recommends Full Genomes Corp. over YFull. Both do a competent job and charge about $50. The difference is that FGC was founded by a project member and its main analyst is another project member. They have a very good idea of the U106 tree and a larger database of U106 Big Y results for comparisons than YFull does. This helps in finding that two men share singletons found in Big Y tests, something that may be missed in the YFull's smaller database of U106 results.

If you'd like to have your relative's Big Y results included in the free analysis provided by the project administrators, we'll need the raw data zip file, which contains the VCF and BED files. These have to be uploaded to the Big Y file folder in our associated Yahoogroup. You can join the Yahoogroup by sending a request to [email protected] - please note that in order to have access to the group files section, you must join using a Yahoo ID. If you'd like, you can download the raw data file and send it to me or Ray Wing and we'll upload it to the Big Y file folder.

[Wheal]

I know I'm just learning but...

I went ahead and ordered the Big Y for my dad shortly after he passed away with the thought that I should go for the biggest bang for the buck when there might not be enough DNA left later.

But now my question is, IF there is a split or a realignment of the tree, all of the untested snps could toss him into a new haplogroup and there may not be enough dna left for testing.

[rwaldrop]

I went ahead and ordered the Big Y for my dad shortly after he passed away with the thought that I should go for the biggest bang for the buck when there might not be enough DNA left later.

But now my question is, IF there is a split or a realignment of the tree, all of the untested snps could toss him into a new haplogroup and there may not be enough dna left for testing.

With the BigY test your father's novel variants will be discovered. If a split or realignment of the tree occurs later due to others completing BigY the SNPs will already be identified and his position on the tree will be adjusted. It is possible additional SNP testing may be required with BigY due to low confidence read on a specific SNP. However if you relied only on SNP testing you would be guaranteed to have to test and retest each time an update to his branch occurs. Additionally those updates may not even be found without having your fathers results out there as it takes 2 men having the same mutation to get those novel variant snps added to the tree.

[mlcarson]

R-S21301

My Big-Y results from batch 774 finally came back. It moved me further down the tree.
R-S16218 -> S13759 -> S21301

This gives me two Big-Y surname matches: Newman and Simony.
There are 8 unnamed variants of high confidence.

No new subclade formed but it adds me to R-S21301. How far back in time does this haplogroup come from?