The Current State of R-L21

[Stevo]

*The Current State of L21 (07 August 2012): The discovery of the SNP DF13 has split L21 into a very large DF13+ group and a thus far much smaller DF13- group. All of the known L21 subclades except DF63 are DF13+, meaning they are downstream of DF13, as well as L21.

If you are L21+ and have not yet tested positive for one of the L21 subclades, you should test for DF13. If you get a DF13+ result, then you can focus on testing for the known DF13+ subclades: DF23, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41. DF49 is thought to be between DF13 and DF23, but that has not been confirmed yet. If you get a positive result for one of those subclades, then you can focus on the branches of those subclades. If you have already tested positive for one of the DF13 subclades, you do not need to test for DF13.

If you get a DF13- result, you should test for DF63. Thus far, it is the only known subclade of L21 that is DF13-.

It is possible to be both DF13- and DF63-, however. We have a few men in that category already.

[Stevo]

If you have a predicted y haplogroup of R1b1a2, you might want to give L21 a try. R-L21 is one of the more common y haplogroups, especially among men of British Isles (including Ireland) and other northwest European ancestry.

[Brunetmj]

Do you have a sense of how long it will take so this is reflected in haplogroup trees ? Very interesting stuff. I am DF 13 + and negative for the rest save 2 more SNP's which are batched now. Just curious what things might look like when the smoke clears. My personal hope is that it will split the UK types from the Continental. Don't misunderstand I love the Irish but it would be nice not to get buried by them on various web sites.

[T E Peterman]

Go to www.isogg.org (International Society of Genetic Genealogy)
You will see the tree is updated there. ISOGG normally updates almost in real time. Family Tree DNA & others update their published trees maybe once every year or two.

Timothy Peterman

[Stevo]

Do you have a sense of how long it will take so this is reflected in haplogroup trees ? Very interesting stuff. I am DF 13 + and negative for the rest save 2 more SNP's which are batched now. Just curious what things might look like when the smoke clears. My personal hope is that it will split the UK types from the Continental. Don't misunderstand I love the Irish but it would be nice not to get buried by them on various web sites.

We'll have to wait for something to come along that will separate the Isles from the Continent in terms of DF13+.

Right now DF13- is looking more continental, especially given how skewed the database is toward people with British Isles ancestry. There are French and Spanish among the DF13- and among the DF13- DF63-.

Even there, though, there are some English and Scots (but no Irish). In the Isles, DF13- appears to be eastern: nothing farther west than Almondbury in Yorkshire. The two Scots are from Caithness and Dundee, both on the east coast.

So far, though plenty of Irish have been tested for DF13, all of them have been DF13+.

[Stevo]

Perhaps one sign of something a bit different with regard to the Continent and DF13+ is the Baltic Cluster, which is an L21 haplotype cluster found among East European Ashkenazim. A representative of that cluster has tested DF13+ but negative for all the SNPs downstream of DF13, except for L583, but we're not sure if that one is private to his family or not.

[Brunetmj]

So far, though plenty of Irish have been tested for DF13, all of them have been DF13+.

Well it appears I will have to read Clan discussions posts for a few more years.

Thank you both for that information.

[Brunetmj]

One further question. If a person tests for DF13 only, no downstream SNP's, would you encourage Y walk through's?

[T E Peterman]

I think that one of the requirements for Walk through the Y is that one has tested to the terminal SNP. There are no more that could be tested.

Timothy Peterman

[Brunetmj]

I see thank you

[Stevo]

The important thing for R-L21 guys right now who have not yet tested for DF13 is to test for DF13. If one gets a DF13+ result, he can decide whether or not to pursue one or all of the major branch SNPs that characterize subclades downstream of DF13, that is, that are descendants of DF13: DF23, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41. Once one gets a positive result for one of those branches, he can decide whether or not to pursue the branchlets off of those branches.

Until one knows whether he is DF13+ or not, testing for the individual downstream SNPs is a real gamble, unless he gets lucky or happens to have a good match to someone who has already tested positive for one of them.

If one gets a DF13- result, the only game in town is DF63.

[Brunetmj]

I guess my question is where do you go after testing DF13 + and negative for all other SNP's under it.
Wait and see what else develops I guess.
I do hope all L21's test ! Getting to participate in a major development is rare.

[Littlest bit]

You guys are making the wait for my husband/son's DF13 test that much more painful! Expected 9/24...ugh!

[Stevo]

You guys are making the wait for my husband/son's DF13 test that much more painful! Expected 9/24...ugh!

If it's any consolation, DF13 results have been coming in earlier than expected lately, with but a few exceptions.

I'm waiting on a Z253 test right now myself, due 12 September.

[Stevo]

If it's any consolation, DF13 results have been coming in earlier than expected lately, with but a few exceptions.

I'm waiting on a Z253 test right now myself, due 12 September.

A bunch of SNP results came in this evening.

Drat! I'm Z253-.

The quest continues.