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  #1  
Old 17th February 2018, 07:43 AM
Magit Magit is offline
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Help understanding admixture - near east/jewish

Hello.

I would be thankfull if you would let me hear your thoughts about my grandfathers admixture-results.
I haven't researched all of his roots so far but all of his ancestors i found were austrians.

His MO2 results are:
British Isles
21%
East Europe
57%
Southeast Europe
19%
East Middle East
< 2%
West Middle East
< 2%

Eurogenes K13 Oracle 2 populations:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.8% East_German + 17.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.82
2 80.1% East_German + 19.9% Ashkenazi @ 2.99
3 85.2% Austrian + 14.8% Ashkenazi @ 3.06
4 78.2% Hungarian + 21.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.09
5 83.1% East_German + 16.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.15
6 67.7% Serbian + 32.3% Southeast_English @ 3.16
7 87.6% Austrian + 12.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.16
8 84.4% East_German + 15.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.21
9 83.3% East_German + 16.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.22
10 76.5% Hungarian + 23.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.23
11 78.6% Hungarian + 21.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.28
12 87.9% Austrian + 12.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.28
13 76.6% Hungarian + 23.4% Portuguese @ 3.31
14 78.3% East_German + 21.7% West_Sicilian @ 3.33
15 84.6% East_German + 15.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.35
16 68.4% Serbian + 31.6% Danish @ 3.39
17 88.9% Austrian + 11.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.41
18 78% Hungarian + 22% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.43
19 89.1% Austrian + 10.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.44
20 88% Austrian + 12% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.44

(but no significant score on Jtest)

Myheritage:
Europe
98.6%
North and West Europe
48.8%
English
24.0%
Scandinavian
19.7%
Finnish
5.1%
East Europe
47.9%
Balkan
47.9%

Ashkenazi Jewish
1.9%
Africa
1.4%
West Africa
1.4%
Nigerian
1.4%


I also manage about 15 other kits of austrian friends of mine and no one has results that are similar to his.
Could these results reflect a near eastern or jewish ancestor hundreds of years ago?
I would be cheered if you could give me some input on this one....
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  #2  
Old 17th February 2018, 09:30 AM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Posts: 2,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magit View Post
Hello.

I would be thankfull if you would let me hear your thoughts about my grandfathers admixture-results.
I haven't researched all of his roots so far but all of his ancestors i found were austrians.

His MO2 results are:
British Isles
21%
East Europe
57%
Southeast Europe
19%
East Middle East
< 2%
West Middle East
< 2%

Eurogenes K13 Oracle 2 populations:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.8% East_German + 17.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.82
2 80.1% East_German + 19.9% Ashkenazi @ 2.99
3 85.2% Austrian + 14.8% Ashkenazi @ 3.06
4 78.2% Hungarian + 21.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.09
5 83.1% East_German + 16.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.15
6 67.7% Serbian + 32.3% Southeast_English @ 3.16
7 87.6% Austrian + 12.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.16
8 84.4% East_German + 15.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.21
9 83.3% East_German + 16.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.22
10 76.5% Hungarian + 23.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.23
11 78.6% Hungarian + 21.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.28
12 87.9% Austrian + 12.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.28
13 76.6% Hungarian + 23.4% Portuguese @ 3.31
14 78.3% East_German + 21.7% West_Sicilian @ 3.33
15 84.6% East_German + 15.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.35
16 68.4% Serbian + 31.6% Danish @ 3.39
17 88.9% Austrian + 11.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.41
18 78% Hungarian + 22% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.43
19 89.1% Austrian + 10.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.44
20 88% Austrian + 12% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.44

(but no significant score on Jtest)

Myheritage:
Europe
98.6%
North and West Europe
48.8%
English
24.0%
Scandinavian
19.7%
Finnish
5.1%
East Europe
47.9%
Balkan
47.9%

Ashkenazi Jewish
1.9%
Africa
1.4%
West Africa
1.4%
Nigerian
1.4%


I also manage about 15 other kits of austrian friends of mine and no one has results that are similar to his.
Could these results reflect a near eastern or jewish ancestor hundreds of years ago?
I would be cheered if you could give me some input on this one....
The Austrian component is clear. I think there is Jewish ancestry but the percentage is not clear. Also not clear is whether there is Ashkenazi or Sephardic ancestry or both. What did Oracle 4 show.
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  #3  
Old 17th February 2018, 03:27 PM
Magit Magit is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 20
Thank you for your input, Josh!
I din't look at the oracle 4 so far because i thought that would be too speculative to be of any use but i will try it -
here are the results:

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + French + Lithuanian + Southeast_English @ 2.466668
2 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.555573
3 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.590836
4 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.592438
5 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.603178
6 East_German + Estonian + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.622018
7 Ashkenazi + East_German + South_Polish + Southeast_English @ 2.644478
8 Ashkenazi + Danish + French + Lithuanian @ 2.649890
9 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.670777
10 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.675515
11 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.684269
12 Ashkenazi + Danish + Lithuanian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.700852
13 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Spanish_Cataluna + Swedish @ 2.731993
14 Austrian + Estonian + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.762840
15 Ashkenazi + French + Lithuanian + Orcadian @ 2.803354
16 Ashkenazi + Russian_Smolensk + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.814766
17 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Danish + French @ 2.818917
18 Belorussian + East_German + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.831105
19 Ashkenazi + French + Lithuanian + North_Dutch @ 2.841521
20 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 2.841836

It seems as if the "Ashkenazi"-component is the only consistent one.
But there is no significant percentage AJ in the Jtest for him.

I can also add his DNA-Land results:

South/Central European 41%
Northwest European 33%
North Slavic 24%
Ambiguous 1.2% (containing Arab/Egyptia Ashkenazi/Levantin)
Southwestern European 1.1%
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  #4  
Old 19th February 2018, 04:07 AM
Magit Magit is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 20
Update:

I thought i look through his matches and comapare them for pile ups.

At first i searched for islamic names (like Mohammed in several versions)but there were none (i thought that that would be the most likely explanation for the near eastern/jewish component because the ottomanian empire wasn't far away from eastern austria), then i checked for italian matches but i found just very few.

I checked for ashkenazic surnames then, but i read that a person with actual jewish background has thousands of jewish matches in Gedmatch, where my grandfather hast just 250 to 400 jewish matches at standardthreshholds maybe as i would estimate.

So i compared him with matches who score 24% AJ in the Jtest or higher and looked for pileups using the tool that lets you compare your cromosomes with up to 50 persons.

I then excluded areas that are described as "Excess IBD Regions" on "khazaria.com" homepage (thanks a lot for your very interessting work there if you read this khazaria).

I added pictures of the 3 pile ups an Chromosome 2, 5 and 20 (the biggest pile).

Finally i used the chromosomepainting tool with Jtest. The areas on Chromosome 2 and 5 are shown as "AJ" there but the area on 20 just partly (the pileup area starts at aboz 6,8M and ends at 10,06M and the AJ-painted area starts at about 7,5M and ends at about 15M).

So i would be very thankful if you could help me interpreting this case.
Attached Images
File Type: gif ChrMatch_20dbc8_2.gif (2.4 KB, 3 views)
File Type: gif _ChrMatch_2.gif (2.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: gif ChrMatch_5.gif (1.8 KB, 1 views)
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  #5  
Old 19th February 2018, 08:10 AM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magit View Post
Thank you for your input, Josh!
I din't look at the oracle 4 so far because i thought that would be too speculative to be of any use but i will try it -
here are the results:

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + French + Lithuanian + Southeast_English @ 2.466668
2 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.555573
3 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.590836
4 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.592438
5 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.603178
6 East_German + Estonian + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.622018
7 Ashkenazi + East_German + South_Polish + Southeast_English @ 2.644478
8 Ashkenazi + Danish + French + Lithuanian @ 2.649890
9 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.670777
10 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 2.675515
11 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.684269
12 Ashkenazi + Danish + Lithuanian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.700852
13 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Spanish_Cataluna + Swedish @ 2.731993
14 Austrian + Estonian + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.762840
15 Ashkenazi + French + Lithuanian + Orcadian @ 2.803354
16 Ashkenazi + Russian_Smolensk + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 2.814766
17 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Danish + French @ 2.818917
18 Belorussian + East_German + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.831105
19 Ashkenazi + French + Lithuanian + North_Dutch @ 2.841521
20 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 2.841836

It seems as if the "Ashkenazi"-component is the only consistent one.
But there is no significant percentage AJ in the Jtest for him.

I can also add his DNA-Land results:

South/Central European 41%
Northwest European 33%
North Slavic 24%
Ambiguous 1.2% (containing Arab/Egyptia Ashkenazi/Levantin)
Southwestern European 1.1%
Yes, it seems Ashkenazi rather than Sephardic. Italian Jewish and Spanish might suggest some Sephardic. The mystery is why he only shows Ashkenazi at Eurogenes. He should be around 7% at Jtest if he is a quarter Jewish. Dna Land may be reading his Ashkenazi as Slavic. Sometimes calculators are off for a person with a complex background.

Last edited by josh w.; 19th February 2018 at 08:18 AM.
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  #6  
Old 19th February 2018, 08:29 AM
Magit Magit is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 20
Thanks a lot for your replie again Josh.

So you think that there is an actual jewish background here and not just some strange noise, based on the data i researched?

And if so, do you think that it dates back just a few hundred years ago ore more likely to ancient roman days or something like that?

(He has just about 4% AJ on Jtest, and the closest fully AJ matches on Gedmatch are shown as about 5 generations away.

EDIT: on Jtest he has Assyrian, Samaritan, Druze and Tuscan instead of Jewish. Mainly Tuscan - in every admixture of oracle 4.)

Last edited by Magit; 19th February 2018 at 08:55 AM.
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  #7  
Old 19th February 2018, 11:49 AM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Posts: 2,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magit View Post
Thanks a lot for your replie again Josh.

So you think that there is an actual jewish background here and not just some strange noise, based on the data i researched?

And if so, do you think that it dates back just a few hundred years ago ore more likely to ancient roman days or something like that?

(He has just about 4% AJ on Jtest, and the closest fully AJ matches on Gedmatch are shown as about 5 generations away.

EDIT: on Jtest he has Assyrian, Samaritan, Druze and Tuscan instead of Jewish. Mainly Tuscan - in every admixture of oracle 4.)
Yes, I think he has Jewish lines. He has AJ matches. His Jtest is not that far off. Given his location, it is less likely that he has Assyrian, Samaritan or Druze ancestry. His Jewish ancestry probably came from central Europe rather than before. As mentioned, I don't know why he does not show up as Ashkenazi on other tests. I have been identified as Druze or Samaritan on some Gedmatch tests. It is not easy to separate Jews from other Levantines. Hader found that Lebanese Druze have overlapping distributions with Ashkenazis.

Last edited by josh w.; 19th February 2018 at 11:56 AM.
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  #8  
Old 19th February 2018, 12:23 PM
Magit Magit is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 20
Ah thanks a lot for your explanations and informations.

Well i fear that his jewish roots wont be traceable because they are too far back, but it is still interesting -
via papertrail i researched all his ggrandparents now and it seems that they all were christians from eastern styria.

Or would you guess that a non paternity event is more likely here than an ancestor 5 generations before my grandfather?

Last edited by Magit; 19th February 2018 at 12:27 PM.
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  #9  
Old 19th February 2018, 12:27 PM
DanielKzk DanielKzk is offline
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Posts: 18
This grandfather is of your maternal or paternal line? you know what your haplogroups?
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  #10  
Old 19th February 2018, 12:43 PM
Magit Magit is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 20
He is my mothers father.
No i only had him tested on myheritage and transfered his data to other companies.
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