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  #1  
Old 25th July 2016, 04:11 AM
LeFoeil22 LeFoeil22 is offline
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predicted M269 - guessed U106>U198?

Dear all,

I received from FTDNA a predicted M269 following my Y-DNA111.

Tim Janzen makes a difference between P312 and U106 using allele values/markers DYS390, DYS576 and CDYa as following:

Haplogroup DYS390 DYS576 CDYa
R-U106 23 17 37
Me 23 16 37

DYS492 (said to be a good predictor for U106 status):

R-U106: 13 (96%)
Me : 13

i am surprised that FTDNA did not used this method to confirm at least M269. Of course Y-DNA is STR test but the above looks clear to me. What you think?

On the top of that i have one match at 37 and another at 67 being U198 and at 12 a lot of L48.

My guess is therefore U198.
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  #2  
Old 25th July 2016, 07:06 AM
Armando Armando is offline
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The subclade predictors are not 100% accurate. FTDNA had tried implementing one at one time and is was a royal mess because way too many people were put into the wrong subclade. The SNP packs or the BigY test are normally a much better way to get closer to your terminal SNP. They are way better than predictors. You might not need an SNP pack though so you should get with the U106 haplogroup admins and follow their advice.

Also, at 12, 25, and 37 markers the matches can be from 2,000-5,000 years ago so ignore those matches. Your 67 marker match if close enough of a GD is a good sign that you are U198 but it isn't a guarantee.
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  #3  
Old 25th July 2016, 07:25 AM
LeFoeil22 LeFoeil22 is offline
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Thanks Armando, this is also my thought and why i posted the above to confront with others here. In fact i was amazed by the match between Tim Janzen markers said to be "U106" markers and mine. I might have been a bit too confident indeed in this figures game.

I ordered a BIG-Y, so let wait for it (patience is surely what is needed in this adventure ). I will post the results when known.
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  #4  
Old 25th July 2016, 10:44 AM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFoeil22 View Post
Dear all,

I received from FTDNA a predicted M269 following my Y-DNA111.

Tim Janzen makes a difference between P312 and U106 using allele values/markers DYS390, DYS576 and CDYa as following:

Haplogroup DYS390 DYS576 CDYa
R-U106 23 17 37
Me 23 16 37

DYS492 (said to be a good predictor for U106 status):

R-U106: 13 (96%)
Me : 13

i am surprised that FTDNA did not used this method to confirm at least M269. Of course Y-DNA is STR test but the above looks clear to me. What you think?

On the top of that i have one match at 37 and another at 67 being U198 and at 12 a lot of L48.

My guess is therefore U198.
Given your DYS492=13, it's most likely that you're U106. We do allow those with DYS492=13 but no SNP testing to join the U106 project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about. However, we expect that members without a SNP test result of U106+ will order a SNP test to confirm their U106 status and remain in the project. Since you've already ordered Big Y, that's taken care of.

Please join the project. We have an active program to analyze members' Big Y results (for free) which will give you more information than what FTDNA gives you about your results. We have a spreadsheet with the Big Y results of, at this point, 700 members. That allows us to make a comparison of novel variants found in the Big Y results. When we see that two or more members share the same novel variant, we've found a new subclade and moved those members down their branch.

Regarding whether you're U198 or not, U198 and L48 are brother clades. So you're either one or the other. L48 is much more common than U198. If you do turn out to be U198, you should join the U198 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U198/. Although this is a subclade of U106, we have an agreement with the pre-existing U198 project to send any U198+ members in our project to them. So, we don't keep U198+ members in the U106 project.
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  #5  
Old 25th July 2016, 10:50 AM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFoeil22 View Post
Thanks Armando, this is also my thought and why i posted the above to confront with others here. In fact i was amazed by the match between Tim Janzen markers said to be "U106" markers and mine. I might have been a bit too confident indeed in this figures game.

I ordered a BIG-Y, so let wait for it (patience is surely what is needed in this adventure ). I will post the results when known.
Tim Janzen is a very knowledgeable genetic genealogist. However, his rule of thumb for distinguishing P312 and U106 is not the best.

To my knowledge, DYS576 and CDYa vary too much, even within the same subclade, to be useful for distinguishing P312 and U106. DYS390 is a relatively slowly mutating marker, but only about half of U106+ men have 23 as the modal for their subclade. You'll also find a small percentage of P312+ men with DYS390=23. This gives you a good idea of what Armando posted about FTDNA's failed attempt to predict R-M269 subclades with STRs. It failed because there's too many exceptions to what seem to be rules.

The best indicator of U106 is DYS492=13. It's accurate about 95% of the time. Also, DYS492=12 is also a strong indicator in R-M269 men that they are U106- and probably P312+.
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  #6  
Old 25th July 2016, 11:55 AM
LeFoeil22 LeFoeil22 is offline
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Thanks for the information MMaddi. I just joined the project R U106 (R1b-U106). I confirm that i am (as per FTDNA) DYS492=13, my BIG Y is on the way (still not batched).

I am really amazed to potentially be U106 since my family is in Brittany for at least over 300y now and all Y-DNA maps give a 80% L21 probability for the Y breton lineage (of course i may be in the 20%..). This could proves that there's still a lot of research work to be done in Brittany/France.
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  #7  
Old 25th July 2016, 12:25 PM
dna dna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFoeil22 View Post
Thanks for the information MMaddi. I just joined the project R U106 (R1b-U106). I confirm that i am (as per FTDNA) DYS492=13, my BIG Y is on the way (still not batched).

I am really amazed to potentially be U106 since my family is in Brittany for at least over 300y now and all Y-DNA maps give a 80% L21 probability for the Y breton lineage (of course i may be in the 20%..). This could proves that there's still a lot of research work to be done in Brittany/France.
The percentages fairly accurately describe populations.

However, one cannot guarantee any heritage for a random individual. His ancestor could have been a highly skilled craftsman or a trade person who was brought in from a far away country. Or a foreign mercenary who stayed after his term was over. These are just examples that are easy to visualize for us in the 21st century, as they correspond to practises of nowadays.

Population genetics is only the first step into an ancestry research. And it works in almost all cases


Good luck with your research!

Mr W
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  #8  
Old 25th July 2016, 12:57 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFoeil22 View Post
Thanks for the information MMaddi. I just joined the project R U106 (R1b-U106). I confirm that i am (as per FTDNA) DYS492=13, my BIG Y is on the way (still not batched).

I am really amazed to potentially be U106 since my family is in Brittany for at least over 300y now and all Y-DNA maps give a 80% L21 probability for the Y breton lineage (of course i may be in the 20%..). This could proves that there's still a lot of research work to be done in Brittany/France.
Now that you're a member of the U106 project, I'm able to look at your results as an administrator. You probably are U198, since you have YCAII=19-22. That's the strong modal for U198, while in all other R-M269 subclades it's 19-23.

Once your Big Y results come in and confirm that, we'll remove you from the U106 Project and direct you to join the U198 Project, per our agreement with them. Their project requires a positive SNP test result for U198. Since you won't have that until your Big Y results come in, you might as well remain a U106 Project member until then.

Looking at the results in the U198 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults, they only have 5 members who list France as the origin of their paternal line. However, two of them specify Normandy, which I believe is close to Brittany; two of the non-specific French lines have the same surname as one of those who specifies Normandy for his paternal line origin. Also, the vast majority of members list a British Isles origin for their paternal line, with a few listing the Netherlands. And Brittany is across the English Channel from Wales, according to the map I looked at. So, it may be the case that your paternal line at some point in time migrated from the British Isles to Brittany or perhaps Normandy and then later came to Brittany.
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  #9  
Old 26th July 2016, 03:36 AM
LeFoeil22 LeFoeil22 is offline
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Quote:
Once your Big Y results come in and confirm that, we'll remove you from the U106 Project and direct you to join the U198 Project, per our agreement with them
no problem, i can't wait to receive my results.

Quote:
So, it may be the case that your paternal line at some point in time migrated from the British Isles to Brittany or perhaps Normandy and then later came to Brittany.
This is my hunch too. My common ancestor with my UK matches may have come from Normandy, settled in the British isles following William the conqueror (or before/after) while someone from the same paternal lineage (him or his brother or son..) moved to Brittany (trader/invader) and stayed because it is a nice country .

It is interesting to note that the surname "Bérubé" (Berruby/Bergaby) is a saxon/norse name used to designate some of their settlements around the baltic sea (VIII & IX C) and later in Normandy. I have a 60/67 markers match with a gentleman named Beresford whose ancestor come from "De Bardolf" in Normandy too at the time of Henri II.

Since guesswork is free, i now recall that there is a fortified camp is a few kilometers from Saint Brieuc (where my family is originated). It is one of those traces of the Norse presence in Brittany. They even found there a "silver denarius" (dated 10th C), the currency used by Normans of York in England. The presence of the "Normans" was so important in that part of Britain that the region could become a second Normandy. It is believed that Duke Breton Alain Barbetorte burned the viking camp around 936.

Well then my Y-DNA is may be not so off tracks. I'd love to test other same surnames holders from the region but in France this is difficult.
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  #10  
Old 16th August 2016, 03:13 AM
LeFoeil22 LeFoeil22 is offline
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Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 16
I just received my BIG Y (well in advance) and the result confirms my guess i am :

S1688 > U198 > .. > JFS0010

I have now to discover all about it
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