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  #111  
Old 21st May 2018, 08:55 AM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Originally Posted by John McCoy View Post
Naming children after different saints, for example John the Evangelist and John the Baptist, is certainly a possibility, but these cases are found in a period when baptisms were not recorded (in my examples, 14th to very early 16th Centuries), so there is no way to know if this is the correct explanation.
Very good point. I would just be happy if there were some more specific indicators to suggest William fitz Nigel and William Dorée were brothers. The Doreys in particular seem to have enormous gaps in the continuity of their documentary record. I wouldn't doubt if the name had arisen independently multiple times in the region, with lineages fading into and out of existence before the documentary record can establish any continuity. But as things stand, this just seems a matter of speculation.

On the plus side, I've assembled all the known or suspected FGC23343+ 67 mark haplotypes and noticed two interesting things:

-In addition to Henderson, there is at least one other instance in the old Uí Ímhair patrimony: a fellow named Crennell (Crellin used interchangeably), almost certainly from the isle of Man. Derived from Mac Raghnaill, a Norse personal name.

-An SAPP network chart replicates my findings--the fiz Gerard and Swift family's common ancestor immediately is preceded by the common ancestor with the Doreys, and then by that with the Hendersons. The path is definitely to England from Normandy from the Scottish islands.

There's still some room for doubt as to how the others most likely connect. SAPP seems to have just mindlessly tacked everybody else on top of one another, resulting in the founder of FGC23343 at a TMRCA nearly 50% earlier than the date suggested by techniques dating the underlying SNPs. Plus, the genetic distances from the modal for those people beyond Henderson suggest really improbable mutation scenarios--like less than 1% probability. And the Henderson node could probably get pushed back a couple of generations, too--there's a large multi-step mutation at CDYb.

The really exotic thing is that there are members of this lineage who appear to be living in the Basque country today. Not a complete surprise, given the distribution of the parent clade, Z209. But I expected to find a really ancient divergence with a long, meandering migration on the continent from Iberia to Denmark before commencing the more typical migration route from Norway to Shetland and then the Hebrides, etc.

FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it's easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn't fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.

Last edited by benowicz; 21st May 2018 at 09:01 AM.
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  #112  
Old 21st May 2018, 09:09 AM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Originally Posted by benowicz View Post
. . . FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it's easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn't fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.
On the other hand, the Irish people's own legends about their earliest origins give prominence to a pirate people from the Mediterranean called the Fomorians. These vectors of cultural exchange are probably incredibly ancient. Like maybe even older than the Roman Empire, although they don't seem to have left much of a Y chromosomal footprint.
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  #113  
Old 22nd May 2018, 07:21 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Originally Posted by benowicz View Post
. . . FGC23343 must have a very idiosyncratic story behind its spread. Like a Basque ship captain joining a viking band around Ireland or the Hebrides. If the seasonal fishing patterns documented from the late Middle Ages were not innovations, it's easy to see how such people could have come into contact. But it just doesn't fit with conventional notions about the ethnic composition of viking bands.
On the other hand, there is this overview of viking activity in Spain carefully reconstructed from a melange of Christian and Muslim sources that suggests that the fleets responsible for the first incursions had previously been involved in the raids on the German Rhineland.

https://cjadrien.com/vikings-in-spain/

According to surname distribution maps, the EKA of the apparent FGC23343+ fellow named Honta is most likely near Bayonne, the base of this particular viking band until 986 A.D.

If instead, of my earlier theory, the true migratory pattern is actually from Scandinavia or Britain to Spain, this could account for the odd observed genetic distances, which make the relationship of the German FGC23343+ people to the primary "Ui Imhair" group scarcely distinguishable from that of the Basque people. Hard to be confident when the relationships are so remote and the sample size so small.

It would be an incredible irony, given the distribution of the parent clade Z209. Like bringing coals to Newcastle. But maybe not impossible.

The typical rule is to assume that the epicentre of a clade's original homeland correlates positively with the level of haplotype diversity, which, in the present scanty information environment, would be the Scottish isles. But against that we have to consider whether the Anglo-centric bias of the available databases could be skewing our results.

Maybe knowing Chalmers' genetic distance to the Gendron matches at 111 markers would be useful. The Gendron surname is concentrated along this same coast, in the Vendee, which, although significantly farther north than Bayonne, also experienced viking raids at this same time. Probably elements of the same viking bands operated in both theatres.
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  #114  
Old 29th May 2018, 06:11 PM
mpryon mpryon is offline
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Gendron

Hmm...interesting that Gendron has come up.
I've got some cousins from Michigan in the US and we've been trying to figure out how we're related and Gendron is the common surname amongst them but I've not yet figured out how I'm related to the Gendrons.
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  #115  
Old 29th May 2018, 06:23 PM
mpryon mpryon is offline
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Argh

And I don't know how I forgot...a few weeks ago my first 111 match (-3) showed up on ftdna. He was adopted but believes that his father's name was Johndrow. Which seems like it could be an Anglicization of Gendron.

Edit, I found one more email from them and they have various spelling of the name in their paperwork: Johndrow, Jaundreau, Jandro, Jandraw and ..... Gendron. The Gendron was born in Quebec in 1777.

Last edited by mpryon; 29th May 2018 at 06:26 PM. Reason: update names
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  #116  
Old 31st May 2018, 07:24 AM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Originally Posted by mpryon View Post
And I don't know how I forgot...a few weeks ago my first 111 match (-3) showed up on ftdna. He was adopted but believes that his father's name was Johndrow. Which seems like it could be an Anglicization of Gendron.

Edit, I found one more email from them and they have various spelling of the name in their paperwork: Johndrow, Jaundreau, Jandro, Jandraw and ..... Gendron. The Gendron was born in Quebec in 1777.
That's very interesting. A little different than my initial expectations. I've sent you a private message with follow up questions, if you don't mind.
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  #117  
Old 21st June 2018, 08:25 AM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Two points with relevance to the remote origin of FGC23343, and the apparent viking involvement of a subset thereof:


1. The ancestral clade Z209, judging from this heat map, is likely to have originated in the neighborhood of San Sebastian in Spain, on the Bay of Biscay, a center of the wide-ranging Medieval whaling expeditions discussed elsewhere.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

But at the 50% confidence level, FGC23343 is estimated to have arisen around 200 A.D. At that time, San Sebastian fell within the territory of the Varduli tribe, who believed to have spoken a Celtic, not a Basque language. In the modern era this place seems to be considered solidly Basque, but that is probably the result of a gradual process of acculturation that did not start until the 500's A.D. and may not have been substantially completed until the 1200's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varduli

The cousin clade M153, popularly described as the "Basque marker", in reality has a somewhat wider distribution, including the definitely Celtic Galicia region, and actually seems to be absent from Navarre, which was probably closer to the Basque Urheimat.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

2. There are odd annalistic references to seaborne raids against Vardulian territory in 455 and 459 A.D. by what could be credibly called "viking precursors". Extremely early, however, considering the Viking Age proper is not supposed to have begun until the late 700's.

http://www.gedevasen.dk/heruls.pdf


I find this article fascinating, but I'm yet not sure it's the basis for a confident extrapolation that the FGC23343 subset that includes FGC28370 entered into a "viking" social milieu through such contact.

-I don't know the reputation or credentials of this author, Troels Brandt, though much of the information he cites seems to be verified by independent sources.

-The identity of the "Eruli" described in the contemporary sources is up for debate. That author's discussion is very brief, and he doesn't describe the basis for his calling these raiders Eruli, or specifically state where they were based. It is by no means clear that the modern interpretation, that they were a northern branch of the much better documented Heruli, is correct.


I guess what I am offering is the extremely tentative suggestion that the ancestor of FGC23343 may have been a Vardulian Celt, and that the ancestors of the Scottish and English branches could have arrived there through a very indirect route including Scandinavia, beginning with a slaving expedition against San Sebastian in the 400's A.D.

It may also be of interest to the two currently identified German FGC23343+ families that the Heruli are also described as being active in the Rhineland. So the possibilities may not be restricted to a narrow scenario involving the Great Heathen Army, as discussed earlier.

As a side note, but probably with interesting implications for the history of FGC23343 in the Scottish islands, there are two other families (Hutchinson and Burgar) in the Shetland DNA project, other than Henderson, who seem likely to be FGC23343+. None of them are close matches to Henderson, and none report haplotypes longer than 25 markers, so this is very speculative. But all of them have DYS458>17, which is one of the markers distinguishing FGC23343 from the modal for the ancestral clade Z209. And one of them, Burgar, like Henderson, has roots in Dunrossness parish, although there is some speculation that their earlier history is in Orkney. In any event, the etymology of the name seems to be some Scandinavian-derived farm name, rather than some origin further afield.
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