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Old 19th April 2018, 11:57 AM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 118
I think one of the areas of this latest hypothesis that deserves attention is the dating of the life of the original Gerard. Some of these dates seem a bit of a stretch.

For example, Ormerod dates the earliest charters mentioning Gerard's name--only by reference to his son, William, though--occur in the reign of King John, ended 1216. He also strongly implies, on what grounds I do not know, that the "avunculus" charter was issued by the Roger, son of Robert II de Montalt, who died in 1232. This seems to make sense to me, since another charter to William, son of Gerard was issued by (a) Robert de Montalt.

But in the pedigree on page 131, Ormerod implies that Emma, daughter of Richard de Kingsley, the widow of the grantee of the 1232 charter, William fitz Gerard, was still alive in 1260 (44 Henry III) or even 1317 (10 Edward II). A bit of a stretch, to say the least, since the birth of that particular Roger de Montalt (~1165) brackets range of possible birth years for William fitz Gerard to between ~1130 and ~1165.


Elsewhere in this same book, Ormerod implies that the nuptials of Emma's sisters, married into the Done and Thornton families, took place around 1216.

Honestly, I think Ormerod may be confusing 2 or even 3 distinct individuals here, and possibly making some unwarranted inferences from the mere mention of these individuals' names. There are no details provided on these documents beyond a date and in some cases the name of the archive in which they were deposited (e.g., "plea rolls"), so it's impossible to feel very confident.

One thing that may contribute to the confusion is the apparent fact that the William, son of Gerard Ormerod lists as marrying Emma de Kingsley was succeeded in turn by two consecutive Williams. If the family had already begun to use "fitz Gerard" as an hereditary surname, instead of a mere ephemeral patronymic, some confusion would be expected.

At the moment, I suspect that it was the 2nd, not the 1st William "fitz Gerard" who married Emma de Kingsley, but I haven't altered my copy of this hypothetical pedigree accordingly in part because I don't want to stray too far from my sources without more concrete evidence, but also because I'm not sure it would have an obvious effect on my conclusion regarding the agnatic origins of the Gerard family.
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Old 20th April 2018, 11:09 AM
mpryon mpryon is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9

That was insanely fast, I got my results last night. The problem is, I've no idea how to interpret them.

FGC28370 A-


edit: I think their FAQ tells me that I'm negative for FGC28370, correct?

Last edited by mpryon; 20th April 2018 at 11:11 AM. Reason: new info...
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:59 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by mpryon View Post
That was insanely fast, I got my results last night. The problem is, I've no idea how to interpret them.

FGC28370 A-


edit: I think their FAQ tells me that I'm negative for FGC28370, correct?
I think so.


"6. How can I tell if I'm ancestral (=negative) or derived (=positive) for a certain SNP?
Go to the table of your results and check the allele column on the very right side. It shows the DNA base (A,G,C or T) that you have at the SNP position and a little plus (+) or minus (-) sign behind it. Plus means that you are derived for that SNP and minus means that you are ancestral.
last updated - 2015-10-01 15:04:50"
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:20 PM
mpryon mpryon is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9

I I do appear to be positive for M8988. Although I've never heard of it.

They seem to have done a few for free.

free A8881 ChrY 7663164 7663164 G-
free A14464 ChrY 7663095 7663095 G-
free BY25715 ChrY 7663097 7663097 G-
free BZ3749 ChrY 7663222 7663222 A-
FGC28370 ChrY 7663000 7663000 A-
free M8988 ChrY 7663056 7663056 C+
free Y17866 ChrY 7663328 7663328 C-
free Y25799 ChrY 7663264 7663264 A-
free Y37459 ChrY 7663097 7663097 G-
free Y84219 ChrY 7663025 7663025 C-
free Y136502 ChrY 7663287 7663287 C-
free Z3947 ChrY 7663153 7663153 C-
free Z5232 ChrY 7663077 7663077 A-
free Z7679 ChrY 7663155 7663155 T-
free Z39650 ChrY 7663187 7663187 G-
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:44 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 118
Interesting. Can't say as I've ever heard of M8988 before, either.

Here is what Genetic Homeland has to say about it.


Pretty dry technical details I don't really understand. Looks like it's only the location and the chemical value.

It doesn't seem to have been integrated into YFull, either.


I wonder if it's been newly discovered.

YSeq didn't provide you with any additional info, did they? Like an estimated age, at least?

Given your comments earlier about STR matches with name variants of Gendron, I wonder if it's a continental, rather than Scottish SNP.
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Old 21st April 2018, 08:20 PM
benowicz benowicz is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 118
At the risk of making this chart even busier, I've decided to include two other relevant details:

1. The descent of Lagmann mac Gofraid, the one member of the Ui Imair dynasty that I am aware was definitely known to have made his way to Normandy.


In my hypothesis, I make the Neel family of Saint Sauveur descendants of Lagmann's cousin, Gluniairn, because the latter was much more closely associated with Iona and the northern Ui Neill dynasties, circumstantially indicated by the Saint Sauveur family history, even though I'm unaware of any direct evidence that Gluniairn went to Normandy.

2. I include the detail that Eustace fitz John, by his 1st marriage, was ancestor to the de Vescy lords of Rotherham.

We would need to be extraordinarily lucky to ever figure out the common ancestor between the two wings of the currently identified core FGC28370+ group, since the predicted MRCA at the 50% confidence level is so remote--~1350 A.D. But having already tentatively traced Flower Swift to the Northleach, Gloucestershire branch of the "rich mercer's" family, it may be a clue worth marking.



This line of de Vescys failed in the male line at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, but his widow lived on unto the 1340s, after which the properties fell into the hands of remote cadets through the female line.


Coincidentally, his widow was related to the same de Mowbray family that the fitz Gerards' de Montalt cousins had married into in an earlier generation.

Important information, but maybe of limited direct importance. Under the current theory, it's possible that some fitz Gerard cousins to the de Vescys settled around Rotherham in some sort of property management role, and eventually gave rise to the rich mercer's family. During much of their tenure, the de Vescys were preoccupied with adventures in Ireland, Scotland, and the crusades.
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