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  #1  
Old 28th January 2017, 07:45 AM
RN1 RN1 is offline
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Question I am... Z17 ! - Help!

Hi – first time Forum poster here – a newbie… so please be gentle!

When I first tested with Y-DNA111 my Haplogroup came back as predicted ‘Presumed Positive’ R-M269. Now, after recently testing with the R1b - M343&M269 Backbone SNP Pack, I am confirmed ‘Tested Positive’ as R-Z17. FTDNA is recommending that I take a further SNP test, the R1b - Z18 SNP Backbone Pack. I don’t really know what to do with this information so I was wondering if anyone out there may be able to guide me and answer a few questions I have?

1) What are the benefits, both to me and others, of joining a Haplogroup Project and if so, which one, M269, U106 or Z18? - (not sure there is a Z17 Haplogroup Project!)

2) Should I take the R1b - Z18 SNP Backbone Pack test to see how much further down my Haplogroup I end up? Or should I just take the leap and test with the BIG Y and what would be the benefit of that?

3) Geographically, where do the R-Z17 branch of ancestors originate from and how long ago did this branch form from the U106 line?

Oh, the questions the questions!! I didn't realise that being R-Z17 was going to be such a burden!!!
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  #2  
Old 28th January 2017, 04:23 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RN1 View Post

1) What are the benefits, both to me and others, of joining a Haplogroup Project and if so, which one, M269, U106 or Z18? - (not sure there is a Z17 Haplogroup Project!)
Haplogroup project administrators are the most knowledgeable people about their haplogroup. They are the ones who, in many cases, can look at STR results and have a good possibility of knowing in which cluster or subclade someone is likely to be in. So, they're a good resource for project members who want to get advice about who are their closest matches and what would be the next step in testing.

Also, many haplogroup projects have their own analysis, for free, of members' Big Y results, which provides a lot more information than FTDNA does. This helps the individual members and also the project as a whole in finding new subclades.

You are allowed to join multiple projects. I suggest that you join both the U106 and Z18 projects, for the reasons I mentioned above. We also suggest that R1b-U106 Project members join our associated Yahoogroup to ask questions and participate in discussions. You can join the Yahoogroup by sending a request to r1b1c_u106-s21-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RN1 View Post
2) Should I take the R1b - Z18 SNP Backbone Pack test to see how much further down my Haplogroup I end up? Or should I just take the leap and test with the BIG Y and what would be the benefit of that?
For those willing to spend the money and who want to find their most downstream SNP possible, Big Y is the test to take.

The R1b-Z18 SNP pack will test you for dozens of known SNPs downstream from Z18/Z17. Big Y will test several million locations on your y chromosome and is able to find previously unknown SNPs. Some of these new SNPs will be private to your paternal line ancestry in the last several generations and others, if anyone with a different surname than yours shares some of your new SNPs, will create a new subclade.

The R1b-U106 Project has a very active analysis program for its members who have Big Y results to compare their raw data and find new subclades. We currently have over 850 members' results, including about 100 of them who are Z18/Z17+, in our analysis spreadsheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN1 View Post
3) Geographically, where do the R-Z17 branch of ancestors originate from and how long ago did this branch form from the U106 line?
In general, the highest level of Z18/Z17 seems to be in the Scandinavian countries, although it's found in other countries, mainly in northern Europe. Iain McDonald, one of the co-administrators of the R1b-U106 Project, has been updating his estimates of the ages of various subclades, based on comparison of Big Y results. He just issued a new update today. His estimate for Z17 is 2031 BC (range of 2731 BC — 1409 BC). Of course, with more SNP testing, you'll undoubtedly find that you're positive for a younger, downstream subclade, so it doesn't tell you much to know the age of Z17, given that it's about 4,000 years old.

Last edited by MMaddi; 28th January 2017 at 04:32 PM.
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  #3  
Old 29th January 2017, 06:58 AM
RN1 RN1 is offline
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Thumbs up Big Thank You!

MMaddi, I am most grateful to you for your prompt, comprehensive and invaluable answers to my queries. I was not expecting such a quick response to my post.

On the strength of your advice, I shall seek to join the U106 and Z18 Haplogroup Projects, as well as joining the R1b-U106 Yahoogroup you have suggested.

As for further SNP testing… again, with such a wonderful reply from you, I shall be ordering the Big Y!

I should be fascinated to know one point regarding geographical locations and ages of haplogroups and their subclades. Is it known in evolutionary time how long it takes for new subclades (and haplogroups for that matter) to form? Is it multi-generational or is it possible that the changes could occur within one generation, such as a multi-mutational event of some kind (e.g. father Z18 had son Z17)? Or is this a rather silly question?

You are obviously an asset to the FTDNA Forums and once again, many, many thanks!
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Old 29th January 2017, 12:11 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RN1 View Post

I should be fascinated to know one point regarding geographical locations and ages of haplogroups and their subclades. Is it known in evolutionary time how long it takes for new subclades (and haplogroups for that matter) to form? Is it multi-generational or is it possible that the changes could occur within one generation, such as a multi-mutational event of some kind (e.g. father Z18 had son Z17)? Or is this a rather silly question?
Iain, based on the analysis he's done from comparisons of Big Y results, has come up with an average of 125 years between new Big Y SNPs, called "novel variants" by FTDNA. It's very important to realize two things.

First of all, that's an average. Some subclades or paternal lines may have a higher mutation rate and others may have a lower mutation rate. There are all kinds of variables involved relating to demography of subclades. Did they arise during a very hospitable climatic period and experience a rapid growth, which would create more men and more opportunity for new SNPs to arise? We have noticed in his estimate of subclade ages that there's a period with few new subclades being formed that seems to coincide during the Iron Age with bad climatic conditions. So, be careful about how you try to apply the average to a specific subclade or paternal line.

The other factor is that Big Y is testing just the best areas of the y chromosome for finding new SNPs. Full Genomes Corp. (FGC) offers an NGS test called YElite. It tests a significantly larger part of the y chromosome and is more expensive. FGC's test does find more novel variants. I believe they're finding with more extensive testing that the average for a new SNP is every 90 years.

Taking the Big Y data and FGC data, it seems that a new SNP occurs every 3-4 generations, assuming an average (another average!) of 30 years/generation. Again, this is an average and some paternal lines will have a new SNP over 2 generations and others may have a new SNP over 5 generations.

You ask if changes are multi-generational or occur in one generation. By definition, a new SNP occurs when a son has a SNP his father didn't. So, every SNP occurs in one generation. If we could dig up the remains of men in each generation of a specific paternal line and have a good enough DNA sample from each of the remains, Big Y testing could probably map out in which generation each new SNP occurred.

Let me give you an example that relates directly to Z18 and Z17. Iain estimates that estimates that Z18 arose in 2321 BC. (I'll omit his ranges for purposes of simplification.) Z17, as far as we know, is a direct subclade of Z18 and is estimated to have arisen in 2031 BC. Another major direct subclade of Z18 is DF95, estimated to have arisen in 701 BC. The ages of Z17 and DF95, both directly downstream from Z18, are separated by about 1,300 years. So, those mutations occurred in different generations of Z18 men and have survived to the present day in living men, you among them. Given that we're finding a new SNP on average every 3-4 generations (90-125 years), there are lots of subclades which were not successful and died out so that there are no living descendants today or at least none who've tested Big Y or YElite. Since these tests find new SNPs, it's possible that we will discover new subclades directly downstream from Z18 that we currently don't know about.

Last edited by MMaddi; 29th January 2017 at 12:23 PM.
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  #5  
Old 15th February 2017, 06:06 PM
RN1 RN1 is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2017
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Thumbs up Amazing Explanation - Thank You Again

I asked the question and boy did you answer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
Iain, based on the analysis he's done from comparisons of Big Y results, has come up with an average of 125 years between new Big Y SNPs, called "novel variants" by FTDNA. It's very important to realize two things.

First of all, that's an average. Some subclades or paternal lines may have a higher mutation rate and others may have a lower mutation rate. There are all kinds of variables involved relating to demography of subclades. Did they arise during a very hospitable climatic period and experience a rapid growth, which would create more men and more opportunity for new SNPs to arise? We have noticed in his estimate of subclade ages that there's a period with few new subclades being formed that seems to coincide during the Iron Age with bad climatic conditions. So, be careful about how you try to apply the average to a specific subclade or paternal line.

The other factor is that Big Y is testing just the best areas of the y chromosome for finding new SNPs. Full Genomes Corp. (FGC) offers an NGS test called YElite. It tests a significantly larger part of the y chromosome and is more expensive. FGC's test does find more novel variants. I believe they're finding with more extensive testing that the average for a new SNP is every 90 years.

Taking the Big Y data and FGC data, it seems that a new SNP occurs every 3-4 generations, assuming an average (another average!) of 30 years/generation. Again, this is an average and some paternal lines will have a new SNP over 2 generations and others may have a new SNP over 5 generations.

You ask if changes are multi-generational or occur in one generation. By definition, a new SNP occurs when a son has a SNP his father didn't. So, every SNP occurs in one generation. If we could dig up the remains of men in each generation of a specific paternal line and have a good enough DNA sample from each of the remains, Big Y testing could probably map out in which generation each new SNP occurred.

Let me give you an example that relates directly to Z18 and Z17. Iain estimates that estimates that Z18 arose in 2321 BC. (I'll omit his ranges for purposes of simplification.) Z17, as far as we know, is a direct subclade of Z18 and is estimated to have arisen in 2031 BC. Another major direct subclade of Z18 is DF95, estimated to have arisen in 701 BC. The ages of Z17 and DF95, both directly downstream from Z18, are separated by about 1,300 years. So, those mutations occurred in different generations of Z18 men and have survived to the present day in living men, you among them. Given that we're finding a new SNP on average every 3-4 generations (90-125 years), there are lots of subclades which were not successful and died out so that there are no living descendants today or at least none who've tested Big Y or YElite. Since these tests find new SNPs, it's possible that we will discover new subclades directly downstream from Z18 that we currently don't know about.
Many, many thanks again for the most amazing answer! Both immensely interesting and extremely informative. You are obviously a deeply knowledgable person and very generous of spirit to take the time to answer in such a succinct and pertinent way. How incredibly kind.
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