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  #1  
Old 29th June 2017, 08:44 PM
Anderley Anderley is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 3
Will I ever find out my father's line family name??

I have upgraded my father's Y sample to 37 markers and his Haplogroup is RM-269. I have also added autosomal family finder. There is a known illegitimacy in the 1790's. There are no familiar names but Sullivan keeps showing up as a 25 marker match -1 and -2. I have noticed most of them have taken the 64 or higher marker test, so are they really valid/interesting??

My question is - will I ever find out what the family name is on my father's line??

And unless I get an exact match on 37 markers, I'm out of luck??

Hoping someone can help me!

Many thanks
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  #2  
Old 29th June 2017, 09:01 PM
georgian1950 georgian1950 is offline
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Posts: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderley View Post

And unless I get an exact match on 37 markers, I'm out of luck??

Hoping someone can help me!

Many thanks
Not meaning to be discouraging, but an exact match on 37 is not guarantee that it is the family name. I take it that you have no GD=0 matches with 37. Do you have any with GD=1?

I think eventually you will make a connection, if you don't give up.

Good luck.

Jack Wyatt
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  #3  
Old 29th June 2017, 10:01 PM
Anderley Anderley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgian1950 View Post
Not meaning to be discouraging, but an exact match on 37 is not guarantee that it is the family name. I take it that you have no GD=0 matches with 37. Do you have any with GD=1?

I think eventually you will make a connection, if you don't give up.

Good luck.

Jack Wyatt
Thanks for replying - No, I have no GD=1 matches on my 37 matches. I do get exact and 1's on 25's but I always see that the matches have higher tests. Am I understanding correctly that the 25 level matches aren't valid?
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  #4  
Old 29th June 2017, 10:13 PM
MMaddi MMaddi is offline
yDNA: R-CTS2509; mtDNA: T2e
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderley View Post
Thanks for replying - No, I have no GD=1 matches on my 37 matches. I do get exact and 1's on 25's but I always see that the matches have higher tests. Am I understanding correctly that the 25 level matches aren't valid?
In general, matches at 12 and 25 markers are not that reliable. In many cases, they represent a common ancestor over 1,000 years ago, some even 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. It's not uncommon for R-M269 men to have dozens or even hundreds of matches at the 12 or 25 marker levels. Most of them fall away at 37 or more markers, indicating they weren't significant matches.

If someone is a 12 or 25 marker match to you and has tested 37 markers, as you have, but isn't a match to you at 37 markers, you can disregard them. That's especially the case since you're looking for a common ancestor a little over 200 years ago.

As georgian1950 posted, you'll just have to be patient and see if a close match at 37 markers shows up. You may want to consider upgrading to 67 markers. It does happen sometimes that someone who isn't a match at 37 markers is a match at 67 markers.

Last edited by MMaddi; 29th June 2017 at 10:15 PM.
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  #5  
Old 29th June 2017, 10:23 PM
Anderley Anderley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMaddi View Post
In general, matches at 12 and 25 markers are not that reliable. In many cases, they represent a common ancestor over 1,000 years ago, some even 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. It's not uncommon for R-M269 men to have dozens or even hundreds of matches at the 12 or 25 marker levels. Most of them fall away at 37 or more markers, indicating they weren't significant matches.

If someone is a 12 or 25 marker match to you and has tested 37 markers, as you have, but isn't a match to you at 37 markers, you can disregard them. That's especially the case since you're looking for a common ancestor a little over 200 years ago.

As georgian1950 posted, you'll just have to be patient and see if a close match at 37 markers shows up. You may want to consider upgrading to 67 markers. It does happen sometimes that someone who isn't a match at 37 markers is a match at 67 markers.
Thank you for this great (but depressing!) information. I have been waiting for so many years!

Last edited by Anderley; 29th June 2017 at 10:23 PM. Reason: forgot a word!
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  #6  
Old 30th June 2017, 08:51 AM
JSW JSW is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 301
RE "It does happen sometimes that someone who isn't a match at 37 markers is a match at 67 markers."
I agree and in general matches between unlike surnames one
needs 67 or 111 markers.
Over the generations mutations happen randomly and they are most likely in the 25-37 markers - that is why FTDNA selected just those markers. So testing to 67 can show valid matches with a few mutations. You should NOT expect an exact match. But you may find one some day as more and more men are tested.
I have several searches in my family. Y-DNA here did one of them in my male line and atDNA is helping with an adopted female find her birth father. In this case it is taking all
three testing companies to zero in on possible surnames.
However the primary name at the moment is Smith and that
name has it's own problems as there are so many men with that surname.
It helps if you have some close cousins on any side to help
determine which side a match is on. Also move all your atDNA
to gedmatch.com to help with analysis of specific segments.
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  #7  
Old 30th June 2017, 06:14 PM
John McCoy John McCoy is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 516
It is worth remembering that surnames were not necessarily stable (as they usually are today) even a couple centuries ago. In some cases, Y DNA has definitely been more stable than the surnames of the men who carry it, with the result that the same haplotype may be associated with multiple surnames. If you happen to end up with a haplotype where almost every other male who has it has the same surname, that's a useful clue. However, it is also possible to end up with a haplotype that is associated with several surnames.

In any case, finding a group of men with the same haplotype is only part of the answer. You will still need to work out what the actual line of descent is from the common ancestor, likely from other lines of evidence, such as geography, and perhaps some lucky autosomal DNA matches.
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  #8  
Old 1st July 2017, 07:06 AM
clintonslayton76 clintonslayton76 is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 149
Anderly, I feel your pain

I have a surname YDNA Project with two lines of "I" men, but also with mostly ones and twos with "R," including four cousins. It is difficult for me to advise those testers/sponsors because 1) the "R" haplo has its own protocol of SNP testing; 2) the four cousins have paper trails that suggest that these are an NPE high up (possibly an adoption), and 3) two of the "Rs" are singletons with a known English heritage, but do not match each other. In addition to patience, cultivate communications with haplo administrators, and consider upgrading to more STRs. STRs are more eliminative than conclusive, but matches at 67 or 111 will produce better distances, albeit those almost always err in optimism (closer TiPs than actual).
Some individual SNPS may start to suggest themselves, but since surnames are a human invention, you might be able to narrow down a list and/or find a network of other researchers with a suspicion to investigate. (I cannot adopt the position that the I haplotype "owns" my surname and variants.) As you go back in time, YDNA matches (in my opinion) are never as exciting as "paper" surnames, but surname use can certainly "mutate" faster than DNA.
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  #9  
Old 17th August 2017, 04:52 PM
jova99 jova99 is offline
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Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 92
maybe

more men do the Y-STR testing each year , so eventually a close match should appear. But the 67-marker test would be better.

150,000 67-marker results are now in the FTDNA database..2 years ago it was just 97,000 results. about 160 million men live in America and another 190 million men in Europe. about one in 2500 men have tested thus far. Eventually it may be 1 in 1,000 males, at which point your odds increase of discovering a close match and the family surname.
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