Y-DNA results - need to understand

[SuzanneB]

Hi

The results for my husband Y-37 are in and they are so dissimilar to what I saw in the results for my uncle that I do not understand. My uncle has tons of matches for 12 and 25 and none at 37 ..

My husband has only 2 matches for 12 with a genetic distance of 0 and nothing else at all. Nothing. And these 2 are not in the 25 and 37 matches.

Then 4 matches at 25 and 2 for 37 with a genetic distance of 4 which are the same as two that matches for 25 with a genetic distance of 2 and with same haplogroup.. That is great..

But what I don't get is why so few matches for the 12 for my husband , compare to my uncle who has 11 132 matches for the 12 and 335 for the 25 with three of them being at 0 genetic distance .. ???

And why are the matches for 24 not in the 12 ?

I need to understand and I need more matches for my husband.

His dad was adopted. We know who the mother is, but no idea who is the father.

We also did family finder and the results are not too promising . Nothing over 73cM and a lot of people do not put the names of their ancestors and/or a family tree, so I cannot know where they are related as I could eliminate the known relations or isolate the father's side of the equation. And most don't answer their e-mail.

Ty Suzanne

[dna]

Could you please tell us the haplogroups FTDNA had predicted for both of them?

Also, is any STR for your husband having a value of zero (0) ?


Mr. W.


P.S.
Nothing unusual in the results.

[TwiddlingThumbs]

Some haplotypes get a lot fewer matches than others either because (i) they are rarer or (ii) relatively few men with that haplotype have gotten tested (eg they are common in cultures or in parts of the world where few people get tested).

It is not usual for matches at a lower number of STRs to not be matches at a higher number of STRs or vice versa. For example, a match with a genetic distance of 4 at 37 STRs might have a genetic distance of 2 at 12 STRs and therefore not show up as a match at 12 STRs. The genetic distance at the highest number of STRs at which both men have tested is what you should focus on.

[SuzanneB]

My husband haplogroup is R-M269 which is very common . And 2 of his 4 matches for 25 are also R-M269. The 2 others are different probably because they went farther in their testing.

I do not see any 0 in his STR certificate.

I am very surprise that there are not more matches in comparison to my uncle (they are the same haplogroup but not related at all). That is my concern.

Thank you-SB

Could you please tell us the haplogroups FTDNA had predicted for both of them?
Also, is any STR for your husband having a value of zero (0) ? Mr. W.
P.S.
Nothing unusual in the results.

[SuzanneB]

Thanks,
I will focus on that for sure as these 2 matches are interesting but my concern is the lack of matches for my husband in a very common haplogroup. My uncle (same haplogroup) got thousands of matches at 12 and 25 with 0, 1 and 2 genetic distance. Another mystery for me to try to unveil.
SB

Some haplotypes get a lot fewer matches than others either because (i) they are rarer or (ii) relatively few men with that haplotype have gotten tested (eg they are common in cultures or in parts of the world where few people get tested).

It is not usual for matches at a lower number of STRs to not be matches at a higher number of STRs or vice versa. For example, a match with a genetic distance of 4 at 37 STRs might have a genetic distance of 2 at 12 STRs and therefore not show up as a match at 12 STRs. The genetic distance at the highest number of STRs at which both men have tested is what you should focus on.

[KATM]

As Twiddling Thumbs noted, your husband may be in a sub-branch of R-M269 that has not had many people tested, thus not a lot of people who could match him. As time goes on, more people will test and he will get more matches. DNA testing is a game of patience.

Another point is, don't worry about the quantity of matches at the Y-12 level; most of those, as you've seen, do not carry through matching at the higher levels. Since your husband's father was adopted, you can use these Y-STR results to see if a common surname keeps showing up. They may indicate your father-in-laws birth father's name.

R-M269 is a very major branch of the R1b branch of haplogroup R; there are many, many sub-branches and "twigs" below it. The only way to find out in which of these sub-branches (called subclades) your husband and/or uncle are, is to do SNP testing. Keep it in mind for the future, anyway. In the meantime, you could have your husband and your uncle join the "R_R1b ALL Subclades" project here at FTDNA (log into the kit, hover over "Projects" in the top left menu, select "Join a project," then select "R" under "Y-DNA HAPLOGROUP PROJECTS," and from under "R," choose the top project, "R _R1b ALL Subclades"). The administrators of that project will provide guidance on possible further testing, and direct you to the appropriate subclade project, should you decide to join the project and get their advice.

Also note, if you decide to do any future tests, that FTDNA has sales throughout the year, and the next likely sale will be in June, for Father's Day, when it is highly likely that Y-DNA tests will be featured on sale. It may be good to upgrade your husband's kit to Y-67 at that time, to see if either of his two matches at Y-37 continue to match him at the higher level. You should check those Y-37 matches first, to see to what level they have tested; if you see Y-DNA67, upgrade to that level, or if Y-DNA111, upgrade to that level. Matches at the highest levels (67, 111) are more significant than those at the lower levels (12, 25). Note, though, that even at Y-111, there may be too many differences for the match to be a very close relative. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

See the FTDNA Learning Center for it's "Y-DNA – Matches Page." Scroll down to the questions area (with the blue "plus" signs) and read:

• Are all of my Y-DNA matches in the database shown on the Y-DNA - Matches page?
• On the Y-DNA - Matches page, are only exact matches shown?

It says there:

"* For Y-DNA12 matches, 11 out of 12 matches are only shown with both customers belong to the same group project.
However, to best serve our customers who are adopted, we provide at the Y-DNA12 level both 11/12 and 12/12 matching to the entire Family Tree DNA database to those in the Adoptee Project. This is because they cannot know the best Surname project to join in advance of testing."

So, you may want to join your husband to the Adoptee Project, just to see if more matches (and perhaps more with the same surname) show up at the Y-12 marker level.

And why are the matches for 24 not in the 12 ?

Since the cut-off for matches varies at each level of STR testing (12, 25, 37, 67, 111), sometimes you will get matches at a higher level that do not show in a lower level. For example, matches at the Y-12 have to have 0 differences, (unless you are in the same project, or in the Adoptee Project, when 1 difference is allowed). But, at 25 markers you can have up to 2 markers different (genetic difference), and at 37 you can have up to 4 markers difference. So, your husband may have someone who doesn't match him at the Y-12 level, with only 0 or 1 difference allowable, but that person will match him at a higher level, where more differences are allowable. This doesn't happen a lot, though.

Then 4 matches at 25 and 2 for 37 with a genetic distance of 4 which are the same as two that matches for 25 with a genetic distance of 2 and with same haplogroup.. That is great..

It is great, because those may be more meaningful matches. Do they have the same surname? Has your husband's father (or your husband, if his father is no longer living) been able to get any information about his birth father, such as non-ID information? You may want to visit dnaadoption.com for more guidance. Oh, and if your father-in-law is still living, see if he will do a Family Finder test.

[SuzanneB]

Thank you so very much KATM

You ave explained why I see only 2 match , same person though so 1 match is more accurate, in the Y-12 chart. This part is clear now.

I will ask my husband to join in the adoptee project so we can see more matches, hopefully, and also my uncle as he is in a similar situation. My uncle already has thousands of matches but maybe not the right ones.

I also found a 2nd cousin 1r that is adopted .He is looking for his paternal lineage. I will also tell him about these projects.

I will keep note of all these info for futur reference ..

Again, thank you so so much . I have hope again .. SB

[SuzanneB]

Follow up

I am trying to find the link for the «Adotee project » and I can't .. I found this one called GAGP : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/gagp/about

Do you know if it is the one they mean in the learning center as they do not provide a link.

As for finding anything about his grand-father, we could not when his father was alive. He tried. No one wanted to talk about it in his family. He passed away a few years ago so can't use his DNA.

ty
SB

[dna]

@SuzanneB

On a lighter note, what would you do if he had four or five thousands of matches with 12 markers? And each and every week new ones were coming?

That is a very real experience for some men within R-M269.


Mr. W.


P.S.
That does not happen often, but some men still get only the Y-DNA12 test.

[SuzanneB]

Yes, my uncle is in that situation .. 11 300 matches at that level ..He has none at 37 .

I would just love a little bit more then 5 matches, all level included, for my husband ..

But this forum has helped me clarify a few things .
Many thanks
SB

On a lighter note, what would you do if he had four or five thousands of matches with 12 markers? And each and every week new ones were coming?

That is a very real experience for some men within R-M269.


Mr. W.


P.S.
That does not happen often, but some men still get only the Y-DNA12 test.

[KATM]

Suzanne, there is a chart on the Paternal Lineages Tests page in the Learning Center that may be of interest to you. It shows the chance for how many generations away a match may be, by percentage (50%, 90% and 95%), for several Y marker level tests (12, 37, 67 and 111 - click on the tab for each to see). It doesn't show anything for more than a few markers difference for each, though. Here are some other pages in the Learning Center, with charts that show in more detail about further marker differences (beyond genetic distance of 3):

• If two men share a surname, how should the genetic distance at 67 Y-chromosome STR markers be interpreted?
• If two men share a surname, how should the genetic distance at 111 Y-chromosome STR markers be interpreted?
• You can see links to the pages like this for 12, 25 and 37 markers on this page: https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...netic+distance

I don't know if the GAGP project (Global Adoptee Genealogy Project) is the same as the one that the Learning Center mentioned, but it looks like a good one, and has some impressive names from the genetic genealogy world as administrators. I don't think you can go far wrong by joining it!

[SuzanneB]

Thank you very much

Suzanne

Suzanne, there is a chart on the Paternal Lineages Tests page in the Learning Center that may be of interest to you. It shows the chance for how many generations away a match may be, by percentage (50%, 90% and 95%), for several Y marker level tests (12, 37, 67 and 111 - click on the tab for each to see). It doesn't show anything for more than a few markers difference for each, though. Here are some other pages in the Learning Center, with charts that show in more detail about further marker differences (beyond genetic distance of 3):

• If two men share a surname, how should the genetic distance at 67 Y-chromosome STR markers be interpreted?
• If two men share a surname, how should the genetic distance at 111 Y-chromosome STR markers be interpreted?
• You can see links to the pages like this for 12, 25 and 37 markers on this page: https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...netic+distance

I don't know if the GAGP project (Global Adoptee Genealogy Project) is the same as the one that the Learning Center mentioned, but it looks like a good one, and has some impressive names from the genetic genealogy world as administrators. I don't think you can go far wrong by joining it!