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  #11  
Old 14th January 2018, 08:39 AM
Malo Malo is offline
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Which Gedmatch Admixture do you use to find Sephardic roots?

Thank you RebeccaR and Khazaria for your help
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  #12  
Old 14th January 2018, 10:14 AM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malo View Post
Hi Josh and thank you for your help.

Regarding matches, I am currently limited to Genesis beta until my FTDNA results come in but I notice that any top matches that I have had (70cM plus) almost always have at least 10% plus Ashkenazi. In addition, there are many lower order matches who seem to have Sephardic names (Nunes, Garza, Jiminez, Vasquez, Perez (10+), Oliveria, Flores etc) but I haven't checked out their ethnicities and to be honest at this stage of my genetic learning, I don't really know what I'm looking at!

When looking at all the various admixtures I seem to get a picture of migration from the Middle East, along the North African coast towards Morocco presumably onto Spain and then back again - which would make sense but who knows.
Malo, the situation is quite complex. Some North African Jews are Sephardics who fled Spain. In addition, some Sephardics migrated east eventually to Poland, the Ukraine and the former USSR. I always thought that I was Ashkenazi but I have Ftdna de la Garza matches from Nuevo Leon in Mexico. They have a written history. De la Garza is a Mexican modification of Garza from Cadiz. To complicate matters, it is not easy to separate Ashkenazi and Sephardic dna lines---see Atzmon (2010)+
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  #13  
Old 14th January 2018, 10:38 AM
RebeccaR RebeccaR is offline
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You're welcome Malo. I'm just a noob but still trying to help Whatever the more experienced members say, listen to them. Have you run the Gedrosia Ancient Eurasia K6 project on GEDMatch?

If there's something it might show up there. It did for my Uncle.
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  #14  
Old 14th January 2018, 10:41 AM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
Malo, the situation is quite complex. Some North African Jews are Sephardics who fled Spain. In addition, some Sephardics migrated east eventually to Poland, the Ukraine and the former USSR. I always thought that I was Ashkenazi but I have Ftdna de la Garza matches from Nuevo Leon in Mexico. They have a written history. De la Garza is a Mexican modification of Garza from Cadiz. To complicate matters, it is not easy to separate Ashkenazi and Sephardic dna lines---see Atzmon (2010)+
P.S. Khazaria pointed me to the de la Garza connection.

Atzmon found that Druze were in a cluster that connected Syrian Jews,Sephardim and Ashkenazim. It was somewhat separate from other Mizrachi groups.
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  #15  
Old 14th January 2018, 11:27 AM
Malo Malo is offline
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Which Gedmatch Admixture do you use to find Sephardic roots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaR View Post
You're welcome Malo. I'm just a noob but still trying to help Whatever the more experienced members say, listen to them. Have you run the Gedrosia Ancient Eurasia K6 project on GEDMatch?

If there's something it might show up there. It did for my Uncle.
Gedrosia Ancient showed nothing along those lines however when I looked at PuntDNAL K12 Modern I see some Ashkenazi:

1 86.2% Norwegian + 13.8% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.44
2 77% Swedish + 23% Tuscan @ 1.46
3 80.8% Norwegian + 19.2% Albanian @ 1.47
4 82% Norwegian + 18% Greek @ 1.47
5 81.1% Irish + 18.9% Romanian @ 1.49
6 75% Swedish + 25% Albanian @ 1.49
7 77.9% Belgian + 22.1% Estonian @ 1.5
8 72.4% Belgian + 27.6% Belarusian @ 1.52
9 78.8% Belgian + 21.2% Lithuanian @ 1.52
10 76.4% Swedish + 23.6% Greek @ 1.53
11 62.5% Belgian + 37.5% Icelandic @ 1.53
12 86.6% Norwegian + 13.4% Sicilian_East @ 1.54
13 61.9% Norwegian + 38.1% Romanian @ 1.54
14 82.6% Utahn_European + 17.4% Belarusian @ 1.54
15 82.6% Norwegian + 17.4% Tuscan @ 1.56
16 60.6% Utahn_European + 39.4% Czech @ 1.57
17 94.5% Irish + 5.5% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.57
18 82.1% Irish + 17.9% Croatian @ 1.58
19 51.8% Czech + 48.2% German_South @ 1.58
20 90% Norwegian + 10% Cypriot @ 1.58

I don't know if everyone has the same issue when they look at all their various admixtures but I see very little continuity in mine! This could be an indication of my very transient and mobile ancestors I guess.

And finally MDLP WORLD 22


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.6% Welsh (derived) + 7.4% Jew-Iran (derived) @ 1.3
2 76.5% Welsh (derived) + 23.5% Gagauz (derived) @ 1.33
3 92.5% Welsh (derived) + 7.5% Jew-Iraqi (derived) @ 1.34
4 92.4% Welsh (derived) + 7.6% Jew_Iraqi (derived) @ 1.34
5 92.4% Welsh (derived) + 7.6% Jew_Kurd (derived) @ 1.36
6 72.5% Welsh (derived) + 27.5% Bulgarian (derived) @ 1.39
7 92.3% Welsh (derived) + 7.7% Jew-Uzbekistan (derived) @ 1.41
8 92.2% Welsh (derived) + 7.8% Jew_Georgia (derived) @ 1.41
9 92.5% Welsh (derived) + 7.5% Jew_Tat (derived) @ 1.43
10 91.9% Welsh (derived) + 8.1% Syrian (derived) @ 1.48
11 92.5% Welsh (derived) + 7.5% Jew_Azerbaijan (derived) @ 1.48
12 68.7% Welsh (derived) + 31.3% Macedonian (derived) @ 1.5
13 91.9% Welsh (derived) + 8.1% Druze (derived) @ 1.5
14 91.6% Welsh (derived) + 8.4% Lebanese (derived) @ 1.5
15 92.1% Welsh (derived) + 7.9% Iraqi (derived) @ 1.51
16 88.4% Welsh (derived) + 11.6% Greek_Azov (derived) @ 1.61
17 92.4% Welsh (derived) + 7.6% Iranian (derived) @ 1.74
18 91% Welsh (derived) + 9% Turk (derived) @ 1.74
19 63.8% CEU (derived) + 36.2% Serbian (derived) @ 1.75
20 92.7% Welsh (derived) + 7.3% Samaritian (derived) @ 1.75

I don't know where the Welsh came from and what 'derived' means.

Last edited by Malo; 14th January 2018 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Addition
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  #16  
Old 14th January 2018, 12:01 PM
RebeccaR RebeccaR is offline
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To me, these results are more telling than the first ones you posted, because these show a closer distance. Now you're into the 1 point somethings whereas before it was only 5 point somethings.

With my Uncle, I just ran a whole bunch of GEDMatch projects and then listed them from closest to farthest, trying to get a full picture of what the various projects were saying. I got his down to 0.938510 at closest, so see if you can better your results too.
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  #17  
Old 14th January 2018, 03:35 PM
RebeccaR RebeccaR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaR View Post
There is also a spreadsheet with different populations but not all the Jewish populations are listed.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...82Hcf/pubhtml#
Fixing this broken link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...82Hcf/pubhtml#

And you know, I just noticed on that link they have a tab to see "Jewish populations in Oracle." It's a separate tab at the top of their page.
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  #18  
Old 14th January 2018, 07:37 PM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaR View Post
Fixing this broken link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...82Hcf/pubhtml#

And you know, I just noticed on that link they have a tab to see "Jewish populations in Oracle." It's a separate tab at the top of their page.
Programs are not interchangeable. It is not a matter of hit or miss. The only programs that can show clear Levantine ancestry are programs that include the Levant (East Med) as a basic component. In other words, Eurogenes, DNA Land and MO 2 with further refinement. For ancient Israel (Natufia), see Gedrosia Near East Neolithic. Oracles only provide an indirect estimate unless the Levant is a basic component. I have been correctly identified with the programs I mentioned. With the other programs identified, some have been correct, but others have identified me as Lebanese, Italian or other Med.

For example, Dodecad is an excellent program for other purposes. However, my top ranked Oracle 4, is mainly a combination of Druze and North African Jews. The more direct tests show me to be over 90% Ashkenazi. On Dodecad, Ashkenazi does not appear until the 7th rank. There is no mystery. Dodecad is simply not precise enough. It places me in Western Asia rather than the more specific Levant.

Last edited by josh w.; 14th January 2018 at 08:10 PM.
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  #19  
Old 14th January 2018, 11:47 PM
RebeccaR RebeccaR is offline
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Josh, thank you for all your insight. What do you think of MyHeritage and Ancestry on their analysis of DNA in respect to Jewish populations?

MyHeritage has Sephardic Jewish - North African (listed in North Africa but separately than North African) and Ashkenazi Jewish (listed in Europe.) Do you think they're able to correctly identify someone and place them in these categories from DNA?

Ancestry just lists European Jewish, with six sub-categories and it shows all Ashkenazi. I don't see anything labeled Sephardic. I see Middle East with a sub-category of Syrian-Lebanese, which I think is poorly labeled, because their circle also includes Israel and Jordan and part of Iraq. So does Ancestry hit the mark or they still more to work on?
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  #20  
Old 15th January 2018, 12:03 PM
josh w. josh w. is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaR View Post
Josh, thank you for all your insight. What do you think of MyHeritage and Ancestry on their analysis of DNA in respect to Jewish populations?

MyHeritage has Sephardic Jewish - North African (listed in North Africa but separately than North African) and Ashkenazi Jewish (listed in Europe.) Do you think they're able to correctly identify someone and place them in these categories from DNA?

Ancestry just lists European Jewish, with six sub-categories and it shows all Ashkenazi. I don't see anything labeled Sephardic. I see Middle East with a sub-category of Syrian-Lebanese, which I think is poorly labeled, because their circle also includes Israel and Jordan and part of Iraq. So does Ancestry hit the mark or they still more to work on?
Rebecca, I have not tested with either company and cannot give a clear answer. I think My Heritage is OK. I think they have a component from the Levant but I have not been able to find their list of Founder Populations and might be incorrect--see below. My concern is that the program might suggest that Jews and other Levantines do not have the same origin in Asia

There are problems with Ancestry. As you noted, they deliberately created a sort of Levantine region that excluded Jews. All dna research of the region indicates that this is nonsense. 'European Jews' is a misleading category since about half of the Jewish lines are from Asia. (At least DNA Land included both Europe and the Levant) In addition, European really means Ashkenazis

Clarification, MO 2 does have a Levantine region (West Middle East). However, those with Jewish ancestry are not shown that they have Levantine ancestry----Jewish preempts Levantine ancestry. This might lead some Jews to mistakenly conclude that they do not have Levantine ancestry. Without modern dna regarding the Levant, Arthur Koestler concluded that Jews had Khazarian origins. (See Khazaria's "The Jews of Khazaria")

Last edited by josh w.; 15th January 2018 at 12:11 PM.
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