Which Y-DNA Test should I push for next?

[loobster]

I would put this in the section for Paternal Testing, except there I have to choose between asking about STR or asking about SNP -- and my question straddles the two.

I convinced someone I believe to be my second cousin - his father's father the brother of my father's father - to do the Family Finder Test. It also indicated we are second cousins, and also indicated that his first cousin, another grandchild of the same grandfather, is my second cousin.
My father and his brothers are all deceased. No male descendants of my father or his siblings. This cousin is my best bet to get YDNA info for my Father.

When I bought the test, I promised him I would not order any other tests on it without his approval.
Having confirmed the likely relationship (originally based on a good bit of circumstantial evidence only), I asked and he agreed to adding a YDNA Test, and I had YDNA-67 done.

Since then, they have added a SNP Pack to the Tests he can order. When the SNP Pack was on sale a year or two ago, I contacted him again, and he said he did not want any more tests done at that time, he was sure it would be on sale again. So - he has not ruled out ever agreeing to more testing being done - but it is possible I will not be able to convince him to do both tests.

Which, if either, should I push hard to convince him to do next? Or ??

[Jim Barrett]

What do you hope to gain from additional testing? How many Y-DNA matches does he have? What are the genetic distances of these matches? Have any of his matches tested to 111 markers? Do any of his matches have confirmed SNP results?

[loobster]

I guess, in a sense, what I am asking is - What does doing the SNP Pack add in the way of information (or anything else)?
Would doing it provide me with any information about my father - as I understand, it is not used for matching, but does it give information about his far-back ancestry or ??

I have some idea what value adding the YDNA111 can provide - and at the moment, probably not a whole lot. But possibly, and possibly potentially in the future.

At YDNA67, he has 13 matches, 3 at 0 step; 3 at 1 step; 1 at 2 steps; 3 at 3 steps; 3 at 4 steps. None at more steps - tho I have seen FTDNA say YDNA67 shows up to 7 steps - should I see some with more steps than 4??
Of these 13 matches, 4 of them show a Terminal SNP.
A 0-step match with a Terminal SNP has tested to 111, as has 1 of the 1-step matches and one of the 4-step matches (that is another one with a Terminal SNP).

[loobster]

I have joined a Facebook group for everyone descended from the ancestral surname of my father's father (at least, what I believe it to be). And another member of that surname group has an extensive Family Tree up. I know where I think my father's father (Harry in US) and this second cousin's father's father (Hyman in US) connect to it, tho their descendants are not shown there. The Facebook group includes three grandchildren (two direct male descendants) and two great grandchildren (one a direct male descendant) of XXXX, whom I believe is another brother of Harry and Hyman - but cannot get any of those descendants to do FamilyFinder or YDNA. Any suggestions on how to convince any of them would be appreciated.

The moderator of the group, according to the Family Tree, should be a 4th cousin once removed of myself and my second cousin - and a direct male descendant of the same ancestor my second cousin is a direct male descendant of (ie should be a direct male descendant of the father of the father of the father of Hyman & Harry). So far, he is the only one who has been kind enough to test at FamilyTreeDNA. He transferred FamilyFinder from Ancestry, did YDNA-12 when it was on sale, and upgraded it to YDNA37 - at which point I asked my second cousin, and received permission to explicitly compare markers with him -- they are both G-M201, but differ on 19 markers, are the same on only 11 [counting named ones only - so some are multiples - guess that is why it says 37, not 30]. Some of the ones they differ on are 23 vs 26, and 12-13-14-15 vs 12-14-14-14 - so is that 3 steps and 2 steps of difference just there?

Had originally been hoping doing the YDNA would allow me to confirm our relationship, since 4th cousin R1 was a bit too far for FamilyFinder to confirm. That amount of difference on the YDNA seems to have totally shot that possibility.

So now, I am just looking to try to find out - to what extent would either of those tests (YDNA111 or SNP-Pack) provide me with any information that would be useful or interesting now or in the future.

[Jim Barrett]

1. but cannot get any of those descendants to do FamilyFinder or YDNA. Any suggestions on how to convince any of them would be appreciated.

2. So now, I am just looking to try to find out - to what extent would either of those tests (YDNA111 or SNP-Pack) provide me with any information that would be useful or interesting now or in the future.

1. You could offer to pay for the kit. If you do this you show select the pay by invoice option and not pay until the kit has been returned.

2. The YDNA 111 upgrade would show if you continue to match the person already know to be a 67/67 match. The more markers you match on the closer the probable relationship. Since this person has a "terminal" SNP listed you might order just that SNP. A SNP pack probably will not determine a true terminal SNP, only the most downstream SNP in the pack that you test positive for. Your's might or might not match the other person. My guess is that you will match him unless FTDNA has added additional downstream SNPs to the pack.

[loobster]

1. You could offer to pay for the kit. If you do this you show select the pay by invoice option and not pay until the kit has been returned.

Jim -- I have offered to pay for the test. Repeatedly. Should have made that clear in my initial comment.

The pay by invoice option may be available if call - don't know - but haven't seen it on the online ordering form in a long time. So far, for other folks who have agreed to test, have just ordered and had the kit sent, and crossed my fingers till it came back. Would be thrilled to do that for some of these as well.

[Jim Barrett]

The pay by invoice option may be available if call - don't know - but haven't seen it on the online ordering form in a long time.

You are correct. I no longer see the option for an individual to use the pay by invoice. As you suggested you might call FTDNA and ask them to do it.

Project admins can place the order for you with the pay by invoice option. I just checked to be sure the option is still there.

You would have to provide the contact information for the person being tested and contact information for the person being tested. I recently did this but the person buying the kit made the payment in advance using the projects general fund. When the kit was returned I paid for the kit from the general fund.

[loobster]

Since this person has a "terminal" SNP listed you might order just that SNP. A SNP pack probably will not determine a true terminal SNP, only the most downstream SNP in the pack that you test positive for. Your's might or might not match the other person. My guess is that you will match him unless FTDNA has added additional downstream SNPs to the pack.

Thinking about comment about SNPs has me wondering --
Are there different types of SNP Packs?
I was referring to the SNP Pack listed on his home page on FamilyTreeDNA for folks of his haplogroup. (currently 107 SNPs "related to M201" for $119)
Seems to me there used to be a way to see which SNPs were included, but do not see any way to do that now. (Also thought there had been just a few more, originally) Had assumed it was supposed to determine the terminal SNP, and thought maybe showing/determining other facts as well - just not clear what any of it might mean.

Does your comment refer to this type of SNP Pack?
Or would you answer differently with reference to that?

As this may reveal, SNPs are really something I know practically nothing about.
Is finding if you match someone's terminal SNP the only reason to test SNPs?
Does matching the terminal SNP tell me more, less, or the same as knowing how one matches at YDNA111, or ??
Does testing a single SNP require about the same DNA sample as testing the full pack, or whole lot less? About the same, or a whole lot less than upgrading from Y67 to Y111?

[prairielad]

"terminal SNP" on match page means the furthest downstream SNP tested positive for, not SNP which determines final known sub clade placement.

So two people can have a different "terminal SNP" and still share the same final Subclade, both would have to order SNP test which determines that final subclade or do Big Y.

It is more about sharing Final Known SNP which determines Final Subclade placement then sharing a "terminal SNP"

On haplotree and SNP page, the SNP packs will list which SNPs are tested (highlighted in purple I believe)

[loobster]

So - is final subclade placement something I want to know? And if so, what is it telling me?

[loobster]

AH - followed up on your suggestion to look on the "Haplotree & SNPs" Page. Since did not have any SNPs, hadn't been looking there. Thank you.

That is where they give some of the info I was asking for here, such as why bother doing it, etc.

It says: "Testing Y-DNA SNP markers places you further down the branch on the Y-DNA haplotree and assists us with scientific research on the Y-tree and for your haplogroup projects. The more people that test their SNPs, the more data points we have to further our understanding of human migration and history. More importantly to you is that SNPs may help in your genealogy and deep ancestry research."

So - if I succeed in talking him into agreeing to the SNP Pack, does it actually help further understanding and etc. as it says?

Is it actually likely to give me info on "ancestry that goes beyond where traditional paper trails end"?

[clintonslayton76]

As Jim Barrett has written...

The SNP packs are not to help you with a relationship, they are to further the study of your haplotype to refine to a terminal SNP, placing you in a haplogroup or even a subclade (a more exclusive club).
A 67-111 marker STR test is still the heart and soul of surname/family testing, because SNP testing has no concern with your family as such.

My highest Big Y "matches" are not related to me in any meaningful way, except to those trying to put a date on a mutation.

[Jim Barrett]

My cousin's best Big-Y match, 23 shared novel SNPs, 0 known SNP differences and 26,982 matching SNPs is also one of his best STR matches. At this time we don't know how they are related. Both are Haplogroup BY12150.

[clintonslayton76]

My YFull "cousin"

My highest SNP match shows in a haplogroup by YFull as I-A1890. His STR test puts him in my haplotype, but by STR interpretation, he is not related to me at all in a meaningful way. Mutation is aged at about 2900 years BPY.
FTDNA used to have both of us as I-Y3153.
FTDNA has now subcladed me as I-F1997. This is, in my opinion, a novel SNP and this should not be used as a subclade, but now my SNP "match" is differentiated on FTDNA.
That at least shows us a "less related" than YFull, but since YFull explains everything they do, and gives age estimates, while FTDNA explains nothing about their changes, gives no age estimates, and does not even announce such changes, I have two different services giving me different haplogroups.
This is what I was pointing out to Loobster, that this is way outside any connection to immediate family or surname.

[clintonslayton76]

Since the hg38 conversion...

Forum member Contemplator helped me determine that the F1997 SNP declared as my terminal on FTDNA is graded as "private" by other test interpreters with smaller databases for comparison, and they stop at A1890,A1892 as terminal.

Now FTDNA shows no Big Y matches of any kind, but did so when I was terminaled as Y3153.