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  #11  
Old 11th September 2014, 07:56 AM
rbmirvin rbmirvin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperipatetic1 View Post
I would not term the fact that Berwick Upon Tweed was a major european port and shipping destination as a theory.
You misread my post. It is indeed a theory, of your own design, that conflated Berwick's status of a port, in the area where the main/"Norman" branch of the Gordon clan established themselves on the Borders has anything to do with a Highland branch of the Gordons.

The Port's website has some nice pictures, but the capacity ranks closer to Wilmington and New Orleans than Long Beach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperipatetic1 View Post
I have a couple very unusual STRs at certain markers for my Hg, and it looks very good at first glance to match my Y line to another colonial family based on the same matched rare values and the same local region, historically, however at a expanded marker set these are not recently related lines at all, despite the early low resolution comparisons that looked very promising.
On the other end of the spectrum, divergences in my paternal line from 200-300 years ago still match me at 67/67. IIRC, I match decendents of representative family lines at 62/67 after 400 years of divergence. That's what being modal for an R1b SNP gets you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Yde View Post
Scandinavia has been mentioned more than a dozen times here, but Scandinavia is a wide term.
Yes. Yes, it is. One of my favorite cartoonists likes to point out just how wide a term it is (She's Danish).

Going by your initial post and some of the links there, I do think it would likely help to re-test at 67 markers. That would help pin down which SNPs, out of those projected to match your DNA, would be reasonable to test. And that in turn may shed more light on where your forefather's ancestors originated.

You could still end up a Gordon - which is fine by me, even if I might be a little bit biased in that regard.
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  #12  
Old 11th September 2014, 02:35 PM
Aperipatetic1 Aperipatetic1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbmirvin View Post
You misread my post. It is indeed a theory, of your own design, that conflated Berwick's status of a port, in the area where the main/"Norman" branch of the Gordon clan established themselves on the Borders has anything to do with a Highland branch of the Gordons.

The Port's website has some nice pictures, but the capacity ranks closer to Wilmington and New Orleans than Long Beach.
I am more than a little certain that no pictures of the city or port of Berwick exist from the period in question.

Quote:
On the other end of the spectrum, divergences in my paternal line from 200-300 years ago still match me at 67/67. IIRC, I match decendents of representative family lines at 62/67 after 400 years of divergence. That's what being modal for an R1b SNP gets you.
Being R1b modal means that a lot of those paternal line matches you closely or exactly parallel, are not actually matches.
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  #13  
Old 11th September 2014, 03:33 PM
Aperipatetic1 Aperipatetic1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yde View Post
I have 314 matches in the 25 marker system, 23/25, 24/25 and 25/25.
There are 45 persons with the name Gordon among these 314, of which 44 are 23/25.
It points towards Scotland.

A private Gordon project immediately placed me in the group of two Gordon brothers, Jock and Tam, born ca. 1360.
"The John “Jock” Gordon of Scurdargue and Thomas “Tam” Gordon of Ruthven (Jock and Tam) represent one of two unbroken lines of Gordon males

Several kits have verifiable documented pedigrees among those in the Jock and Tam branch.
O.K. this is my last post- Let me see if I am understanding what is going on correctly. To my understand, you are 'blind matching' based on STR similarity to others in the FTDNA Y database. You do not have a CONTEMPORARY linkage directly to Scotland or to any males with the Surname of Gordon. Due to the volume of those within your FTDNA match list who all share among themselves the surname of 'Gordon' you are concluding that your paternity is also drawn from or through a male Scot bearing the surname 'Gordon'. Is that all basically a correct understanding on my part?

If so, there are several issues with this conclusion that are immediately obvious. Firstly, they are close low-resolution STR matches to you, however this is not necessarily a case of your paternal line originating through them, because we can deduce that its fairly likely if not certain that their Hg originated with a immigrant to Scotland from a likely Scandinavian or Germanic culture / population, at some unk point in time.

We can have great confidence that someone who migrates to Scotland, contributed the 'Gordon' I1 Y line. We cannot, however, deduce with any confidence that this person(s) descendant later reverse-migrates to someplace of Scandinavian culture to donate the Y line to your paternal progenitor. So while the initial migration to Scotland is fairly certain for that Y line, the later reverse migration is not needed and not proven to be the case. Even if you share the exact Y line that the 'Gordon I1' testees all possess, which is not confirmed, it could simply be a branch of the line that their originator brought with him to Scotland.

The 'bubble' of Gordon surname testees is quite possibly a factor of a aggressively recruiting Y project that can be unintentionally skewed by everyone who is tested excitedly telling their uncles, cousins, nephews, fathers and grandfathers about the conclusion that they are historically significant 'Jock and Tam' descendants, and then all these related folks also enmasse submit their own samples at the urging of those recruiting for the project who are excited about what they are being told is their lineage.

If there were only 1 Gordon testee who shared a close STR match out of 314 people, you would not make any particular issue of the 'match', despite the fact that even 1 'Gordon' would have the same potential impact as 40 people with that surname, most of whom are seemingly linked to the efforts of a surname project. A pool of (blind) close Y line matches who all share a surname that you do not, does not statistically mean that they are any more significantly related to your Y line ancestry than another single match by the surname of 'Smith' or 'Johnson', who shares the same degree of matching to you- it only means that the Gordon surnamed males can all conclude that they are all related paternally along the same Y line, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The fact that you have 314 matches in the first place indicates to me that you have a fairly modal Haplotype as far as your STR values go. Because of this, it means that a lot of people within your Hg/Ht share similar STR values. The sample submitted by "Smithers", "Yde", "Gordon", etc.. all go back to a ethnically related population origin, but do not necessarily all share the same descendant or family history. Scots in particular are going to be vastly over-represented in any current Y STR database of paying participants because this demographic is dominated by people with Colonial American or British Isles ancestry. Thus, its far from a random sampling.

Lastly, I don't know how someone is substantiating that they can prove a unbroken lineage back to 1000 a.d. or 1360 a.d. in the case of the 'Jock and Tam' claim, but it would take exhuming long deceased identifiable bodies, and DNA testing them, to make such a assertion definitively, given the time frame in this case. For most of mankind, we could not actually locate a gravesite to allow a exhumation, let alone carry out the DNA testing.

Its possible that everything you are saying is 100% true, but its also possible that there are many other explanations that are a lot simpler. In any event, I am done on the topic and suggest you follow the course I suggested earlier as far as upgrading your marker set and focusing on slow mutators as a means of confirming or excluding a Y line match. I would urge you to be critical of any and all claims that come your way, test them and investigate, because there are a lot of otherwise well meaning people who can be emotionally invested in certain outcomes. Best wishes.
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  #14  
Old 12th September 2014, 02:52 AM
1798 1798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yde View Post
About the technical specifications experts says:
Thegordondnaproject has placed me in The Northern Highland Branch, the descendants of Adam de Gordoun (born about 1035) through the two brothers “Jock and Tam” Gordon, which is the biggest Gordon family group with most testers seem to have wound up in Scotland.
The ftdna I1-project placed me in I1-Z140 L338+ AS-1
The I1-Z140-project placed me in I1-L338+
The Normans of Continental Europe-project placed me in I1-AS1
The Denmark-project placed me in I1-Z59 Branch Nordic Continental West
The Scandinavian project placed me in Ungrouped.

I have at this moment only seven matches "12/12,23/25,33/37", of which six have the name Gordon and the seventh is a Douglas.

From Minnesota, USA, a Mr. Gordon reports that his forefather Gordon was born in 1740 in Scotland.
From Australia a Mr. Gordon announces that his ancestor Gordon had a son born in 1844 in Scotland.
A third Mr. Gordon, eastern USA, is a descendant of a Gordon born 1759 in Scotland, he kindly tells.

What have these and the other three Gordons in common? I think everyone in this forum would say “an ancestor named Gordon, who was born before 1720”.

But then, what do I and other Yde-folks have in common with these Gordons? Is “six out of seven matches 12/12, 23/25, 33/37” too little to give the answer: "Gordon we have in common"?

The ftdna-calculators tell that the common ancestor for Yde and Gordon “for sure” lived after “1066” and that he could have lived in “1492”, par exemple.

The Gordon-deoxyribonucleic acid-molecule was in Normandy, France, before it came to Scotland. People with that signature might very well have seen the Viking ships of Ragnar Lodbrok and later those of Rollo in the 9th century passing by.

It was not till the 15th century that relations between Scotland and Denmark were established, whereas contacts between Scotland and Norway had been frequent for centuries. In the mid-15th century Scots sailed to the Baltic and Scottish immigration to Denmark began at the same time, spreading along the international sailing-route through the Sound into the Baltic. It is thus due probably not only to the hazards of the survival of records that a few Scots occur at first in Aalborg, North Jutland, among the members of the Corpus Christi Guild. Many Scots came to Danish Elsinore, Copenhagen and Malmo, but even more headed for Danzig/Gdansk and by the 17th century, there were an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 Scots living in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Familynames and DNA in “Preussia” can in our days be traced back to Scotland.

Studying history is a must in the new dna-world. Dna-calculation itself is not enough at present.

The mentioned gypsy/sigřjner/zigenare/mustalaisia/kaale/roma, was my many-G-grandmother,and she might have been pregnant when she left Scotland.
In tests on LBK remains from Hungary haplogroup I1 was found.The LBK reached Normandy 7000 years ago and then entered Scotland and northern Ireland around 5,800 ybp.
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  #15  
Old 12th September 2014, 11:28 AM
rbmirvin rbmirvin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperipatetic1 View Post
I am more than a little certain that no pictures of the city or port of Berwick exist from the period in question.
I'm sure that were much nicer places use for a landscape study back then, and still are. At least I took the time to look the port up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperipatetic1 View Post
Being R1b modal means that a lot of those paternal line matches you closely or exactly parallel, are not actually matches.
My point was that matching a modal signature usually pulls in not 5 or so, but a lot of close STR matches. If that means that all matches from that point on are then inherently false positives, then there is no reason at all for someone to test at more markers.


By the way, is there any level of STR and/or SNP matching you would consider adequate to show common ancestry without digging people up?
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  #16  
Old 12th September 2014, 12:31 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Here is a map of L338 http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/293/ I don't see the Viking link.
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  #17  
Old 13th September 2014, 12:45 PM
Yde Yde is offline
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From Eider to Normandy to Scotland

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
In tests on LBK remains from Hungary haplogroup I1 was found.The LBK reached Normandy 7000 years ago and then entered Scotland and northern Ireland around 5,800 ybp.
The authors Anna Szécsényi-Nagy, Guido Brandt, Victoria Keerl, et al do not mention Scotland and Ireland of what I can see in the report about one I1.

They have studied LBK - and LBKT, which means “Linear Band Keramik culture in Transdanubia” where Transdanubia is a geographical term referring to the area of Hungary which lies between the Danube and the western borders of Hungary.

“The two investigated LBKT-samples carry G2a2b (S126) and I1 (M253). LBK reached central Germany around 5500 BC. In the following 500 years the LBK continually expanded, eventually covering a vast geographic area from the Paris Basin to Ukraine in its latest phase and persisted in Transdanubia until ca 4900 BC”, they tell.

= = =

Two months ago I didn’t know that Gordon and many other Scottish Clans once came from Normandy to Scotland. Now I can read about them. I think most of their forefathers came by boat along the coastline to Normandy and that they before that used the river Eider as a road through the Jutland peninsula whatever being Viking raiders or sellers of eiderdown.
http://www.scotweb.co.uk/info/catego...ily-histories/

Quote:
Aperipatetic1 wrote: I would urge you to be critical of any and all claims that come your way.
Could be an idea. Maybe I have too much focus on sabotage, bu yet I haven’t seen any claim coming my way. At this moment I am waiting for an upgrade to see and conclude what will happen to my success story.
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  #18  
Old 13th September 2014, 01:08 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yde View Post
Two months ago I didn’t know that Gordon and many other Scottish Clans once came from Normandy to Scotland. Now I can read about them. I think most of their forefathers came by boat along the coastline to Normandy and that they before that used the river Eider as a road through the Jutland peninsula whatever being Viking raiders or sellers of eiderdown.
http://www.scotweb.co.uk/info/catego...ily-histories/



Could be an idea. Maybe I have too much focus on sabotage, bu yet I haven’t seen any claim coming my way. At this moment I am waiting for an upgrade to see and conclude what will happen to my success story.
Do you think that there was no I1 in the Isles until the Normans brought it in?
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  #19  
Old 13th September 2014, 01:23 PM
Yde Yde is offline
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Waves into the British Isles from 410 to 1200

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1798 View Post
Do you think that there was no I1 in the Isles until the Normans brought it in?
The first I1 at the latest came to the Isles when the Romans - those from Rome - left ca. 410, and you know that.

But they are not issue for me here. I don't guess they are my direct ancestors.

After the Gordon-things I now think my biological ancestor belonged to a much later wave.
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  #20  
Old 13th September 2014, 02:10 PM
1798 1798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yde View Post
The first I1 at the latest came to the Isles when the Romans - those from Rome - left ca. 410, and you know that.

But they are not issue for me here. I don't guess they are my direct ancestors.

After the Gordon-things I now think my biological ancestor belonged to a much later wave.
I1 arrived with the first farmers and have been arriving ever since.
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