Big-Y - any compelling reason for it in my case?

[mlcarson]

My Y-67 tests came back with a Haplogroup of I-M223. My AncestryDNA autosomal test seemed to indicate a more specific I-L126 match and I also have a Y-25 match with a Haplogroup of I-L126.

I've got very few Y-DNA matches:
Y-67: 1 match with a genetic distance of 7 and wrong last name.
Y-37: 1 match with a genetic distance of 3 but correct last name.
Y-25: 3 matches with a genetic distance of 2 - 2 wrong last name and 1 correct name.
Y-12: 4 matches with a genetic distance of 0 - 2 wrong last name and 2 correct name.

There's a single I-M223 SNP pack that can confirm SNP's on the current haplotree for $119.

With respect to genealogy, is the Big-Y worthwhile in my case? Maybe I help discover a new terminal SNP in the best case scenario but if you have few real matches as is, I don't see a more restrictive filter adding a lot of value.

Can I afford the Big-Y? The answer is yes. Is it worth an extra $456 over the current SNP panel? I need convincing on that one. I think I'd rather throw that money at finishing the Y-111 ($129) and doing a mtDNA full ($199). That way I get both a Y-DNA and a MtDNA Haplogroup along with the best Y-STR tests for filtering. This seems sufficient for a long time based on the matching so far. I realize that the MtDNA is pretty worthless for genealogy too but figure knowing it has some value in satisfying a anthropological curiosity and could always act as another filter for maternal genealogical research.

If I get more curious about my DNA, it seems that future WGS testing would be the way to go. The BIG-Y is starting to show its age compared to other testing. It's also frustrating in that it's value has diminished over time with the scrubbing of the MtDNA results.

So, for my situation where there's very few Y-DNA matches and an SNP panel which will cover the known Haplogroup tree -- what's the case for doing the Big-Y?

[htb]

Big-Y - any compelling reason for it in my case?

YES Everyone should do "mtFULL", "111strands" and "BIG-Y". THIS is the ONLY way "BIG-Y" & "111", that you can get the CLOSES to your true FAMILY, well BIG-Y, goes far back then that. IN STUDYING my MARKERS and SNP's I thought I "MIGHT" be hooked-up with "NEIL of 9 HOSTAGES", when my BIG-Y came in I only have TWO family Surnames in there, and not even close to me; one, I understand, I'm from SCOTLAND, and He from IRELAND,and I was in AMERICA 200 years before his GREAT????Grandfather that came over was even born; but when I did a test (push a button) that showed THE CLOSES SNP's with me, - - IT CAME OUT TO BE A MAN WITH THE LAST NAME "NEIL"!!! I know what you're saying - that doesn't proof that you're from "NEIL of 9 HOSTAGES", maybe not, BUT it sure mays me feel better, that I MIGHT BE!!!

[mlcarson]

So this is the price of what you advocate.
FF: $79
Y111: $359
mtDNA: $199
Big-Y: $575
Interpretation of BAM: $50
Shipping: $13
Total: $1275

These don't include any discounts so maybe you can get it down to about $1000 if you time things right. That's still a heavy investment and doesn't include any additional tests on family members. It seems like an unrealistic expectation.

I think the autosomal test is high value but that it probably should be done at ancestry.com and then transferred here since you can't do it the other way around. It's more expensive that way but you then have access to two different pools of people.

I see the value in the Y-37/67/111 tests since there's a nice simple matching algorithm and the incremental pricing makes it seem less expensive than it really is. You also get a general Haplogroup prediction which can then be refined via Big-Y or SNP testing.

It's this next step with the Haplogroup matching where I think the value diminishes from a genealogical perspective. It's got great anthropological value and I'm sure it's interesting to the DNA researchers but wouldn't a Y111 test also tell you how closely two individuals were related?

I find the Haplogroup thing interesting so would like to know mine as it's defined in the currently defined Haplotree but if I can get that information via a much lower cost SNP panel test, why wouldn't I do that? If I had tons of potential matches which I wanted to filter then the idea of doing a Big-Y test to discover a new SNP would be appealing. Right now, I'd be lucky to get one Y111 match. And it's always going to be easier to get people to do a longer Y-STR test than it is to do a Big-Y. It might be just as easy though to to have them take a SNP panel test to get their terminal SNP/Haplogroup. There doesn't seem to be a search function strictly based on SNP on FTDNA though so the Y-STR tests still have more value. Ysearch.org allows you to do it but the database size seems to be small.

I was looking for a bit more explanation why Big-Y would be right for me in contrast to the SNP panels.

[htb]

BIG-Y 111 Markers

I've been on FTDNA since 2014, when in 2011 a Cousin did my DNA and found out I was NOT an ADCOCK, but a MOORE (on Ancestry). I came to FTDNA took a 67 Marker test and it put me with some MOORE's. Later I added the 111, and it gave me several MOORE cousins. We found out that my 2nd GREAT-GRANDFATHER "Archy A Adcock's" Father was LAWRENCE MOORE, and his mother was MATILDA ADCOCK, and one of the Parents had the Marriage ANNULLED. I "LATER" did the "mtDNA-FULL" for my Mom. I STUDY the MARKERS and the SNP's and can tell you WHERE my MOM & DAD started from and WHERE they went, (unless the DNA Specialist have it wrong). I'm Sorry, but, I'm NOT going to let someone tell me something and then NOT go study it; THIS WAY if they are right, I learn what they know and may pick up on some things that their'er NOT telling or they don't know. YOU ARE A SON OF ABRAHAM, but after a while we all break off of each other, and go OTHER ways; My Cousin and I are both FGC925, which is in SCOTLAND, when FTDNA get to FGC920, that means my Cousin goes to IRELAND, and I stay in SCOTLAND. THIS is where we came from before coming to AMERICA.

[htb]

P.S.

I HAD TO SAVE UP FOR ALL OF THIS; I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING ECEPT THE LITTLE TEST ON SMOCKING, AND HEATH STUFF. IT "ALL" HAS BEEN WROTH EVERY "CENT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MMaddi]

There's a single I-M223 SNP pack that can confirm SNP's on the current haplotree for $119....

With respect to genealogy, is the Big-Y worthwhile in my case? Maybe I help discover a new terminal SNP in the best case scenario but if you have few real matches as is, I don't see a more restrictive filter adding a lot of value....

If I get more curious about my DNA, it seems that future WGS testing would be the way to go. The BIG-Y is starting to show its age compared to other testing. It's also frustrating in that it's value has diminished over time with the scrubbing of the MtDNA results.

So, for my situation where there's very few Y-DNA matches and an SNP panel which will cover the known Haplogroup tree -- what's the case for doing the Big-Y?

I've bolded a section of your initial post. It seems to indicate that you're not strictly interested in using Big Y results for genealogy purposes. Maybe I've misinterpreted, but your reference to finding a new terminal SNP indicates to me that you're open to the idea of testing Big Y to build the tree for your subclade.

As you noted in your last paragraph, the SNP panel will only cover SNPs in the known haplogroup tree. Based on my experience as an administrator of the R1b-U106 project, a SNP panel will only get you down to a SNP that's in the range of 1,500-2,000 years old, with some exceptions that will give younger SNPs. You'd have to check with the I-M223 project administrators if that holds true for their experience with SNP pack results for their subclade.

So, if you're only interested in genealogical time frame results from SNP testing, I don't think that the SNP pack will meet your needs. However, Big Y (again in my experience with R1b-U106 reults) will give you "terminal" SNPs, some previously unknown, in the general range of 500-1,000 years. (I write "terminal" because the only true terminal SNP is one that you have and your father or perhaps your grandfather doesn't, which would mean testing both of you through Big Y or another NGS or a WGS test.) That gets you in the time frame of genealogical research that you seem to be interested in. Plus, it potentially helps create new subclades on the I-M223 tree, which also seems to be a secondary interest you have.

Now here's where a SNP pack can't be compared with Big Y. With Big Y results, you'll also get novel variants which are private to the last several generations of your specific paternal line. That's within the last 500 years, which potentially can help you a great deal in your genealogical research. You can have those novel variants made testable at YSEQ, another testing company, and create a panel that's basically your recent paternal line ancestry. Then you can have those who you think are related to your paternal line in the last several generations send a DNA sample to YSEQ and cheaply test that panel of SNPs to see how recently they're related to you, based on how many of your novel variants they share.

That's an expensive way to use DNA results to aid your paternal line genealogical research, but it's more certain than using even 111 STRs, given the faster mutation rate of STRs compared to SNPs. Also, as you point out, WGS may be the way you want to go, for the most bang for the buck. But I think I've presented a case for using Big Y as a tool for your genealogical research.

[lgmayka]

Y-67: 1 match with a genetic distance of 7 and wrong last name.
Y-37: 1 match with a genetic distance of 3 but correct last name.
Y-25: 3 matches with a genetic distance of 2 - 2 wrong last name and 1 correct name.
Y-12: 4 matches with a genetic distance of 0 - 2 wrong last name and 2 correct name.

I bolded your most important match. I suspect/assume that the match with your surname has not yet upgraded to 67 markers--otherwise, he would appear in your 67-marker match list, and probably closer to you than the match with a different surname.

My own opinion is that you and your surname match are an ideal pair for the Big Y. If both of you order the Big Y--perhaps the next time a discount or coupon is available--you will define a new subclade specific to your clan, get your TMRCA, and also determine exactly how your clan fits into the larger historical picture.

If your other-surname 67-marker match also orders the Big Y, you and he will learn how long ago your respective patrilineages diverged (presumably prior to the adoption of surnames).

[mlcarson]

I've already contacted that match. Correct assumption in that this person hasn't upgraded to 67-markers. The weird thing is that the 67-match didn't show as a match at 37 but did at 12,25,67 -- assuming this is a mistake and contacted support but no answer yet.

The Y-37 match is of a family of Carson's that migrated about 100 years earlier than my clan to the USA. Interesting but neither of us has any paperwork to a common ancestor in Ireland but there appears to be one.

I bolded your most important match. I suspect/assume that the match with your surname has not yet upgraded to 67 markers--otherwise, he would appear in your 67-marker match list, and probably closer to you than the match with a different surname.

My own opinion is that you and your surname match are an ideal pair for the Big Y. If both of you order the Big Y--perhaps the next time a discount or coupon is available--you will define a new subclade specific to your clan, get your TMRCA, and also determine exactly how your clan fits into the larger historical picture.

If your other-surname 67-marker match also orders the Big Y, you and he will learn how long ago your respective patrilineages diverged (presumably prior to the adoption of surnames).

[mlcarson]

The administrator of the I-M223 project has also indicated that the I2-M223 SNP pack is getting older and doesn't test for all of the newly found SNP's and also brought up the case again for discovering new ones.

You've made a case for doing the Big-Y which I appreciate and is probably what I'll end up doing. I may end up waiting until 4/25 to see if there's a discount. I'll have to see what my balk threshold is because it'll be a wait for an even longer wait. It takes me a long time to choose to do something but then I just want it done. The money then becomes less important than the time.

..
As you noted in your last paragraph, the SNP panel will only cover SNPs in the known haplogroup tree. Based on my experience as an administrator of the R1b-U106 project, a SNP panel will only get you down to a SNP that's in the range of 1,500-2,000 years old, with some exceptions that will give younger SNPs. You'd have to check with the I-M223 project administrators if that holds true for their experience with SNP pack results for their subclade.

So, if you're only interested in genealogical time frame results from SNP testing, I don't think that the SNP pack will meet your needs. However, Big Y (again in my experience with R1b-U106 reults) will give you "terminal" SNPs, some previously unknown, in the general range of 500-1,000 years. (I write "terminal" because the only true terminal SNP is one that you have and your father or perhaps your grandfather doesn't, which would mean testing both of you through Big Y or another NGS or a WGS test.) That gets you in the time frame of genealogical research that you seem to be interested in. Plus, it potentially helps create new subclades on the I-M223 tree, which also seems to be a secondary interest you have.

Now here's where a SNP pack can't be compared with Big Y. With Big Y results, you'll also get novel variants which are private to the last several generations of your specific paternal line. That's within the last 500 years, which potentially can help you a great deal in your genealogical research. You can have those novel variants made testable at YSEQ, another testing company, and create a panel that's basically your recent paternal line ancestry. Then you can have those who you think are related to your paternal line in the last several generations send a DNA sample to YSEQ and cheaply test that panel of SNPs to see how recently they're related to you, based on how many of your novel variants they share.

That's an expensive way to use DNA results to aid your paternal line genealogical research, but it's more certain than using even 111 STRs, given the faster mutation rate of STRs compared to SNPs. Also, as you point out, WGS may be the way you want to go, for the most bang for the buck. But I think I've presented a case for using Big Y as a tool for your genealogical research.

[lgmayka]

The weird thing is that the 67-match didn't show as a match at 37 but did at 12,25,67 -- assuming this is a mistake and contacted support but no answer yet.

A mistake is unlikely. Much more likely is that the greatest number of mismatches occur in the 26-37 marker panel. Please keep in mind the distance limits applied by FTDNA to marker matches:
12 - 1 or less within project, otherwise 0
25 - 2 or less
37 - 4 or less
67 - 7 or less
Thus, it is easily possible for someone to match at 12 and 25 markers, not match at 37 markers (i.e., distance 5, 6, or 7), then match again at 67 markers.

Occasionally, a match will appear at 67 markers (typically distance 7) who did not appear at any lower level.

[MMaddi]

You've made a case for doing the Big-Y which I appreciate and is probably what I'll end up doing. I may end up waiting until 4/25 to see if there's a discount. I'll have to see what my balk threshold is because it'll be a wait for an even longer wait. It takes me a long time to choose to do something but then I just want it done. The money then becomes less important than the time.

If you'd like to get the lowest price for Big Y, wait until the holiday sale, which goes from mid-November to Dec. 31. For the last three years, FTDNA has included Big Y in the sale. The regular price for Big Y is $575, but during the sale the price is $525.

Also, during the holiday sale, each Monday every FTDNA customer receives a Holiday Rewards coupon, good for one week, for a specific test. Among the coupons given, some further reduce the price of a Big Y test by anywhere between $50 and $125. The coupons can be used by anyone and there are public spreadsheets that many genetic genealogists maintain to offer unused coupons for various tests. The administrators of your haplogroup project are probably aware of this and may have their own spreadsheet for trading unused coupons.

You can probably easily find a Holiday Rewards coupon which will reduce the price to $400-450. So, start saving now for a Big Y test at the end of the year.

[mlcarson]

There's no way I'm patient enough to wait until the end of the year for $50. I think DNA Day or Father's day would be my limit. Thanks for the info though.

If you'd like to get the lowest price for Big Y, wait until the holiday sale, which goes from mid-November to Dec. 31. For the last three years, FTDNA has included Big Y in the sale. The regular price for Big Y is $575, but during the sale the price is $525.

Also, during the holiday sale, each Monday every FTDNA customer receives a Holiday Rewards coupon, good for one week, for a specific test. Among the coupons given, some further reduce the price of a Big Y test by anywhere between $50 and $125. The coupons can be used by anyone and there are public spreadsheets that many genetic genealogists maintain to offer unused coupons for various tests. The administrators of your haplogroup project are probably aware of this and may have their own spreadsheet for trading unused coupons.

You can probably easily find a Holiday Rewards coupon which will reduce the price to $400-450. So, start saving now for a Big Y test at the end of the year.

[mlcarson]

I found my matches in the surname project groups which list all of the markers so was able to examine the 26-37 markers. It was just as you said. There were 3 marker differences.
12 - 0 (total 0)
25 - 2 (total 2)
37 - 3 (total 5)
67 - 2 (total 7)
It seems like there should be a way of getting actual markers from the match screen but I haven't found it.

A mistake is unlikely. Much more likely is that the greatest number of mismatches occur in the 26-37 marker panel. Please keep in mind the distance limits applied by FTDNA to marker matches:
12 - 1 or less within project, otherwise 0
25 - 2 or less
37 - 4 or less
67 - 7 or less
Thus, it is easily possible for someone to match at 12 and 25 markers, not match at 37 markers (i.e., distance 5, 6, or 7), then match again at 67 markers.

Occasionally, a match will appear at 67 markers (typically distance 7) who did not appear at any lower level.

[Yde]

I have 4000 matches in all. With Big Y there is at the moment three left.

One 107/111, confirmed by paper trail going 300 years back.
Two 11/12, with a common ancestor living "2000 years ago".

What happened to the other 3997 men? Didn't they test Big Y, or is there something wrong?

Maybe of value for historians, but not for private genealogists?

[MMaddi]

I have 4000 matches in all. With Big Y there is at the moment three left.

One 107/111, confirmed by paper trail going 300 years back.
Two 11/12, with a common ancestor living "2000 years ago".

What happened to the other 3997 men? Didn't they test Big Y, or is there something wrong?

In the R1b-U106 Project, we've had about 900 members take the Big Y test. But that's only about 25% of the members. I suspect that's significantly above the average if you take the entirety of the FTDNA database of yDNA results.

So, most of your matches probably haven't taken the Big Y test. It's impossible for FTDNA to compare your Big Y results to others who haven't taken the test.

Also, even if all 4,000 of your matches had Big Y results, most of them wouldn't be in your Big Y match list. Most of the 12 marker matches aren't on the same branch as you and wouldn't be close to your subclade. In the case of the two 11/12 matches who show up on your Big Y match list, the Big Y results have proven that the common ancestor lived more recently than 2,000 years ago, although that could have been accomplished by those two 12 marker matches upgrading to 67 markers.

Maybe of value for historians, but not for private genealogists?

Read my first post in this thread. I presented the case for using Big Y results in genealogical research, looking for matches within the last 500 years.

The original poster seemed to agree that I made the case, even though I conceded that it's an expensive way to do it. He also reported that he's chomping at the bit to order Big Y for his research purposes, along with helping build the tree for his haplogroup.