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  #1  
Old 17th August 2017, 03:42 PM
welliott welliott is offline
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Ashkenazi T1 mtDNA

So I read on Eupedia that my haplogroup, T1 is not found among Jewish populations, but all of my maternal family, and even specifically my maternal line, are Ashkenazi Jews. My records only go back as far as ~1875 for the direct maternal line, but it ends in a Hungarian/Ukrainian shtetl where my family supposedly had lived for generations.

My autosomal results agree with that perfectly, and I have x-matches with people whose ancestors also came from the same area. So I don't think there was any weirdness like babies getting switched at the hospital.

Does anyone have any different information about the frequency of the T1 haplogroup amongst Ashkenazim?
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  #2  
Old 18th August 2017, 04:06 AM
khazaria khazaria is offline
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When I looked through my current Family Finder match list, I saw people who appear to be recently fully Ashkenazic Jewish with subclades like T1, T1a, T1a1, T1a1k1, T1a1j, and T1b3.

Also a half-Ashkenazi half-Sephardi person inherited his Sephardic mother's line from Greece or Turkey and it is T1a1j.

According to Ian Logan's mtDNA database, a particular T1a1j holder tested by Doron Behar's team and carrying the GenBank code JQ702925 has Sephardic Jewish roots in Rhodes, Greece.
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  #3  
Old 22nd August 2017, 03:37 PM
welliott welliott is offline
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Quote:
Also a half-Ashkenazi half-Sephardi person inherited his Sephardic mother's line from Greece or Turkey and it is T1a1j
Interesting, thank you! My autosomal results also showed some Turkish/Greek ancestry that I have no records of anywhere in my family, but maybe there was some sephardic admixture?

Good to know there are other ashkenazim with the T1 haplotype, though. It'll be interesting to see my particular subclade when I get coding region results back.
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  #4  
Old 22nd August 2017, 05:15 PM
khazaria khazaria is offline
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Originally Posted by welliott View Post
My autosomal results also showed some Turkish/Greek ancestry that I have no records of anywhere in my family, but maybe there was some sephardic admixture?
In Family Finder, at low levels of total sharing, do you match any Sephardic type people? (Such as people whose recent ancestors were all Turkish Jews, Greek Jews from Rhodes or Salonika, Moroccan Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Spaniards, Azorean Portuguese, etc.) Any such matches could be clues. However, note that the reverse is also true: some Sephardim have small amounts of distant Ashkenazic ancestry.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:26 PM
welliott welliott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khazaria View Post
In Family Finder, at low levels of total sharing, do you match any Sephardic type people? (Such as people whose recent ancestors were all Turkish Jews, Greek Jews from Rhodes or Salonika, Moroccan Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Spaniards, Azorean Portuguese, etc.) Any such matches could be clues. However, note that the reverse is also true: some Sephardim have small amounts of distant Ashkenazic ancestry.
I'm not totally sure? I can look through my matches on family finder, I'm just given names, and I wouldn't necessarily recognize characteristically Sephardic names. I'll attempt to look through a list of common ones and cross reference, unless you know of a better way?

I wonder if you could also help clear one other thing up for me that might help: I'm a man, so my x chromosome is exclusively from my mother, but I also get general autosomal matches with 0 x-match that seem more likely to correspond to my mother. Do you know if all autosomal match with 0 x-match necessarily comes from my father's side? Limiting to x-match would narrow the search a lot.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 08:57 PM
loisrp loisrp is offline
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Originally Posted by welliott View Post
Do you know if all autosomal match with 0 x-match necessarily comes from my father's side? Limiting to x-match would narrow the search a lot.
You can easily have autosomal maternal matches with no "X" chromosome sharing. This could be as close as your mother's sibling, for example, as it would even be possible for you to share no "X" with your mother's sibling. (Not very likely if the mother's sibling is a full sister, and probably not likely even if it's your mother's brother, but still possible.)

Last edited by loisrp; 22nd August 2017 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 31st August 2017, 11:05 AM
welliott welliott is offline
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Originally Posted by loisrp View Post
You can easily have autosomal maternal matches with no "X" chromosome sharing. This could be as close as your mother's sibling, for example, as it would even be possible for you to share no "X" with your mother's sibling. (Not very likely if the mother's sibling is a full sister, and probably not likely even if it's your mother's brother, but still possible.)
Oh, okay, thanks! Good to get clarification on that.

I got my coding region results back, and I think the Sephardic origin for my mtDNA is probably sunk. My subclade is t1a1 and the vast majority of my exact full maternal sequence matches are in Scandanavia or the British Isles. I realize that only puts us as related within the last 500 years, so maybe there was a convert somewhere down the line? Though if my family were in Galicia the whole time, I'm curious as to when there would have been likely to have been a Scandanavian or British/Irish woman to have married into a Jewish population between circa 1500 and 1880.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:55 PM
khazaria khazaria is offline
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Originally Posted by welliott View Post
I got my coding region results back, and I think the Sephardic origin for my mtDNA is probably sunk. My subclade is t1a1 and the vast majority of my exact full maternal sequence matches are in Scandanavia or the British Isles. I realize that only puts us as related within the last 500 years, so maybe there was a convert somewhere down the line? Though if my family were in Galicia the whole time, I'm curious as to when there would have been likely to have been a Scandanavian or British/Irish woman to have married into a Jewish population between circa 1500 and 1880.
Hi again. In your Full Coding Region screen, could you please tell us the genetic distance numbers between you and the members of Christian families from northern Europe? By exact matches did you mean the genetic distance is truly 0? Or are some of them more like genetic distance of 3?

You might still have some Sephardic DNA in some other lineage(s), though.

I doubt all of your ancestors were living in Galicia in the 1600s. Some possibly lived in nearby regions like Hungary or central Poland at that time.
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  #9  
Old 7th September 2017, 10:53 AM
welliott welliott is offline
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Originally Posted by khazaria View Post
Hi again. In your Full Coding Region screen, could you please tell us the genetic distance numbers between you and the members of Christian families from northern Europe? By exact matches did you mean the genetic distance is truly 0? Or are some of them more like genetic distance of 3?

I doubt all of your ancestors were living in Galicia in the 1600s. Some possibly lived in nearby regions like Hungary or central Poland at that time.
Well, prior to 1919 the area my direct maternal line is from was Hungary, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they had moved around within the country. Some cousins very proudly considered themselves Hungarian until the 30's when that shifted for obvious reasons.

I do have some 3 distance matches in those regions, but I was referring to 0 distance matches in my previous post. I've attached a screenshot of the map. In my matches list there are some other ashkenazi people, but the highest concentration of 0-step matches for my full sequence ftDNA seem to be people of Scandanavian Christian ancestry.
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File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2017-09-07 at 8.49.38 AM.jpg (100.2 KB, 13 views)
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  #10  
Old 1st October 2017, 05:50 AM
SHV SHV is offline
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T1a1 among Jews

I believe I have corresponded with welliot privately. I wish to make a statement here so that others can correct any error. I understand that the statistics provided by FTDNA that an exact Full Sequence mtDNA match indicates a common ancestress within the last 550 years applies only to the majority of mtDNA branches which have developed mutations over the centuries, on the average of one every 500 years. A good example is that of Richard III's sister from whom paper trail present descendants have been traced. Richard's full sequence has been published. His mtDNA haplogroup is J1c2c3 and one of the descendants can be seen to carry an additional mutation in the coding region, which must have appeared in the last 500 years.

According to Behar T1a1 appeared 6997.3 years ago give or take 2088.1 years. The root form of T1a1, which I carry and I am Jewish, has however had no mutations since then, that is it has not changed in any way since that date. This would provide completely different statistics which would put the average common ancestress at 2,000 or 3,000 years ago. This would leave ample windows of opportunity for a European to convert to Judaism in the medieval period.
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