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Old 18th October 2017, 01:40 AM
James Madison James Madison is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 3
Interpretaions wanted for YDNA-12 >111 match

As a newbie, I am seeking your interpretations of the following data on a person match. This is the only person match with whom I have marker matches from 12 through 111. As the surnames are different, I have more puzzled.

I am O'Donnell R-M269, my match is:
Last Name BOYLE; YDNA Haplogroup R-M269, Y-DNA12 (0 step exact match); Y-DNA25 (2 step); Y-DNA37 (3 step); Y-DNA67 (5 step); Y-DNA111 (7 step)

This Boyle lives in a area near to where my great-great-grandfather and his children settled in the USA. I have exhausted the paper trail in genealogy for my O'Donnell family.

What conclusions can you experts offer ?
James Madison O'Donnell
kit 750498
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Old 18th October 2017, 11:22 AM
TwiddlingThumbs TwiddlingThumbs is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 145
What does the TiP report say? The match isn't all that close. Off hand, it suggests to me a "probable" shared male ancestor maybe 250-500 years ago (ie probably back in Ireland). Probably an NPE - eg a O'Donnell male fathering a son with perhaps a unmarried Boyle woman and the son taking the Boyle name. Or vice versa. Or possibly just convergent mutations of STRs between unrelated lines. If you and the other guy did terminal SNP testing, you could determine whether the STR match was the result of convergent mutation or not and, if it is not the result of convergent mutation, perhaps determine more precisely when the common ancestor lived and whether it was a O'Donnell who fathered a Boyle or a Boyle who fathered an O'Donnell. However, without genealogical records, you will probably never be able to find out the exact connection and which ancestors were involved in any NPE.

Re lives in same area in US as your ancestor - It was common for people from the same area in Ireland to end up in the same area in the US. So I don't think the fact that they were in the same area in the US means that the shared ancestral event occurred in the US. Per above, based on timing, it sounds more likely that it occurred back in Ireland.

Last edited by TwiddlingThumbs; 18th October 2017 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 18th October 2017, 12:16 PM
James Madison James Madison is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 3
The TIP report for my Boyle match (Eugene BOYLE and Mr. James Madison O'Donnell did not share a common ancestor in the last 4 generations.) I changed the 1 to 4 and recalculated for more accurate estimates. Any thoughts ?

Generations Percentage
4 9.72%
8 40.03%
12 60.17%
16 73.54%
20 82.43%
24 88.33%

25 Marker
Generations Percentage
4 3.77%
8 26.05%
12 50.29%
16 69.48%
20 82.42%
24 90.33%

37 Marker
4 14.44%
8 64.66%
12 88.64%
16 96.82%
20 99.19%
24 99.80%

67 Marker
Generations Percentage
4 12.62%
8 64.64%
12 90.18%
16 97.80%
20 99.57%
24 99.92%

111 Marker
Generations Percentage
4 7.78%
8 58.68%
12 89.75%
16 98.23%
20 99.76%
24 99.97%
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Old 18th October 2017, 12:32 PM
jova99 jova99 is offline
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Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 108

Do you have any other close matches at 67 Markers ? or 111 markers ? This could help if you have common matches with him.

your common ancestor is back over 300 years ago in Ireland, from 16 to 20 generations ago. Irish men tended to get married around age 25 and have children until they were 45...thus 16 generations could be 400 years ago.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:54 PM
dna dna is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,963
TwiddlingThumbs outlined your research avenues. Let me add number 4.
  1. Please get a SNP test, so STR convergence can be excluded. Ultimately be prepared for purchasing a Big Y test.

    Does he display anything but R-M269?

    Actually, you may need to wait a week or more, since FTDNA is in the middle of redoing presentation of Big Y results, and his terminal SNP might change regardless of what is being shown today (if he took Big Y, and his Big Y had not been finished yet).
  2. Please get Family Finder test, so relationships up to the 5th cousin can potentially be investigated.
  3. Consider NPE, and if that happened too long ago, you are possibly out of luck.
  4. Consider a voluntary name change, as that is known to be happening in the past for a variety of reasons. (Sometimes reasons are unknown to us. Voluntary name changes appear to be more frequent than involuntary ones.)

Mr. W

TiP reports for Y-DNA111 are most accurate. If you want some interval, consider that they may be going in the direction of Y-DNA67 TiP results, but the other ones (12, 25, 37) have very large margins of error. Also, how are you sure that you two do not share a common ancestor within last 4 generations? I am not saying that you do, but you appear to not have a real proof of that. The Family Finder test (if taken by both of you) would give you such a guarantee.
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Old 19th October 2017, 07:51 AM
James Madison James Madison is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 3
First, you all have my thanks for the responses and insights.

1) The FF is a NON-match between Eugene Boyle and me.
2) There is no common ancestor in the last 4 generations: my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, my great-great-grandfather. I am as sure as one can be based on the paper trail of traditional genealogical research which I have completed. Ancestry.com and Newspapers.com were the key to success. Did I interpret "generations" properly on the TiP web page ?
3) Name changes and extra-marital offspring are always a possibility.
4) Other close matches, (there are 4, and less close than that of Eugene Boyle.
a) Each of the following @ 67 marker have a 6-step match. Zero matches @ 111 "not a match". Mr. Robert J Rodday Jr.; William Gallagher; Wayne Snodgrass; Mr. William Kernohan.
b) the remaining @ 67 Marker are 7-step matches, no 111 matches
5) The Y-DNA matches with my last name, O'Donnell, there are five, only match at at the 12 marker with a 1-Step match.
6) Only R-M269 is shown. Should he consider the O'Donnell project ?
7) Which SNP test are you recommending ?
Best regards,
James Madison O'Donnell
$ R1b......M222.....O'Donnell Primary group @ M222
99999.1a..... 111 & 67 Advanced STR Tested
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