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-   -   is my mom's dad not my grandpa or is my grandpa not irish?! (http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=41713)

coltrane+coffee 1st May 2017 08:36 AM

is my mom's dad not my grandpa or is my grandpa not irish?!
 
Hi All,


I started my journey about ten years ago, working on ancestry to confirm my maternal grammy's creole/hispanic/native ancestry. I did not worry about other grandparents because I "knew" that my dad's family was Sicilian/Southern Italian and my mom's dad was Irish.
Until my mom and I took DNA tests and I had Dr Mcdonald look at my raw data. My mom is mostly southern european/ middle eastern + the native/hispanic + negligible irish from her mom. I was expecting her to be MORE than half irish.


Here's the issue-- I have massive amounts of Middle Eastern showing up (as does my mom and dad). Hardly any Irish (about 2-5%). My "Irish" grandpa looks very very light skinned, blue eyes, etc. I would have a very hard time believing he was middle eastern or southern italian. It is not impossible that my mom has a different father, my grammy and grandpa do not have a great history. But how can I know since I can't test them? Can anyone look at my Dr McDonald or GedMatch results and give me your opinion? I feel like I opened Pandora's box without meaning to.


From Dr Mcdonald:
Most likely fit is 53.5% (+- 4.4%) Europe (various subcontinents)

and 46.5% (+- 4.4%) Mideast (all Druze/Palestinian)




GedMatch EUROGENES K15 Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 20.39
2 Atlantic 17.01
3 West_Med 16.80
4 North_Sea 16.06
5 West_Asian 11.73
6 Baltic 4.01
7 Red_Sea 3.89
8 Amerindian 3.53
9 Sub-Saharan 3.27
10 Eastern_Euro 2.75


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tuscan @ 7.339388
2 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.869248
3 West_Sicilian @ 10.373453
4 Greek_Thessaly @ 10.999198
5 East_Sicilian @ 11.901875
6 North_Italian @ 12.028803
7 Central_Greek @ 12.060759
8 Greek @ 12.885490
9 Ashkenazi @ 13.263012
10 South_Italian @ 14.147992
11 Bulgarian @ 16.038883
12 Romanian @ 16.766090
13 Italian_Jewish @ 17.823042
14 Spanish_Extremadura @ 18.853924
15 Portuguese @ 18.892721
16 Serbian @ 18.984224
17 Sephardic_Jewish @ 19.288082
18 Spanish_Murcia @ 19.451982
19 Spanish_Galicia @ 19.593527
20 Algerian_Jewish @ 19.742329

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +50% French @ 6.346087


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +25% Orcadian +25% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.515476


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
1 Armenian + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + West_Sicilian @ 5.223331
2 Assyrian + Italian_Abruzzo + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia @ 5.240050
3 Assyrian + Italian_Abruzzo + Portuguese + Spanish_Galicia @ 5.285800
4 Assyrian + Portuguese + Spanish_Galicia + Tuscan @ 5.295395
5 Armenian + Portuguese + Spanish_Galicia + West_Sicilian @ 5.302469
6 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Spanish_Cantabria + West_German @ 5.307912
7 Assyrian + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + West_Sicilian @ 5.314923
8 Cyprian + South_Italian + Spanish_Extremadura + West_German @ 5.315082
9 Assyrian + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + Tuscan @ 5.326185
10 Assyrian + French + Spanish_Galicia + West_Sicilian @ 5.351078
11 Georgian_Jewish + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Galicia + West_Sicilian @ 5.351468
12 Assyrian + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Galicia + Spanish_Murcia @ 5.365200
13 Assyrian + Portuguese + Portuguese + Tuscan @ 5.376184
14 Cyprian + Portuguese + South_Italian + West_German @ 5.378393
15 Assyrian + French + Portuguese + West_Sicilian @ 5.386012
16 French + Lebanese_Muslim + South_Italian + Spanish_Galicia @ 5.390863
17 Lebanese_Muslim + South_Italian + Spanish_Cantabria + West_German @ 5.392002
18 Algerian_Jewish + Assyrian + Spanish_Cantabria + West_German @ 5.393109
19 Assyrian + Greek_Thessaly + Portuguese + Portuguese @ 5.397324
20 Assyrian + Greek_Thessaly + Portuguese + Spanish_Murcia @ 5.402171

JerryS. 1st May 2017 10:24 AM

you have two grandfather's, and four grand parents. you get approx. 1/4 from each of them as a general rule, give or take. remember, "Irish" is a nationality more than it is an ethnicity. your "Irish" could be from a long line of Germans or Norwegians that immigrated there long ago and changed their last name to fit in.

coltrane+coffee 1st May 2017 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryS. (Post 439552)
your "Irish" could be from a long line of Germans or Norwegians that immigrated there long ago and changed their last name to fit in.


thank you so much for replying. I should have clarified that I usually end up with about 6-15% of northern euro on any given test, and my maternal grandmother is part Irish. I just feel like the math doesn't add up. I'm okay if my grandpa isn't Irish, but overall, the math means he has to be turkish or southern Italian which...he's just not.

ltd-jean-pull 1st May 2017 02:31 PM

Are these your results or your mother's results?

I think the North Sea and Atlantic could be "Irish".

These are the K15v2 results of someone with four Irish gt-grandparents and four Italian or Sicilian grandparents. The father of the tester has four Irish grandparents, and the mother of the tester has the Italian or Sicilian grandparents.

Population *
North_Sea 19.53
Atlantic 21.63
Baltic 7.87
Eastern_Euro 6.39
West_Med 16.95
West_Asian 9.05
East_Med 13.61
Red_Sea 3.28
Northeast_African 1.68

ltd-jean-pull 1st May 2017 02:51 PM

And someone with 31 gtgtgt-grandparents from the British Isles (4 are known to be Irish), 1 from France or Switzerland.
Population *
North_Sea 39.94
Atlantic 25.18
Baltic 8.60
Eastern_Euro 8.41
West_Med 11.07
West_Asian 4.34
Red_Sea 0.23
South_Asian 0.68*
Siberian 0.07
Amerindian 0.72
Oceanian 0.41

Hadn't noticed the Oceanian before - a smidgen has popped up on MyOrigins 2. (They do not have Oceanian ancestry)

coltrane+coffee 1st May 2017 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd-jean-pull (Post 439559)
Are these your results or your mother's results?

I think the North Sea and Atlantic could be "Irish".

These are the K15v2 results of someone with four Irish gt-grandparents and four Italian or Sicilian grandparents. The father of the tester has four Irish grandparents, and the mother of the tester has the Italian or Sicilian grandparents.

Population *
North_Sea 19.53
Atlantic 21.63
Baltic 7.87
Eastern_Euro 6.39
West_Med 16.95
West_Asian 9.05
East_Med 13.61
Red_Sea 3.28
Northeast_African 1.68

They're my results. I agree the north sea and atlantic could be irish, but even if they are, I guess the numbers were just shocking to me and my mom since we had always thought she had 1 full irish parent and one half irish parent (her mom).
Im looking forward to seeing the My Origins breakdown, I hope they are more useful than 23andme!

ltd-jean-pull 2nd May 2017 06:19 PM

Thank you for clarifying. So according to your paper trail ancestry you are about 3/8 Irish?

K15 doesn't have a category called "Irish". Did you look at the spreadsheet to see average results for "Irish"?

coltrane+coffee 2nd May 2017 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd-jean-pull (Post 439593)
Thank you for clarifying. So according to your paper trail ancestry you are about 3/8 Irish?

K15 doesn't have a category called "Irish". Did you look at the spreadsheet to see average results for "Irish"?

Yes, thank you! My mom (according to the extensive paper trail) should be 75% Irish (50% from dad and 25% from mom). Her 23andme showed about 10% Irish and about 20% northern euro total(including that 10% Irish).

The K 15 Ged match Irish is more than double my mom's results for North Sea Atlantic--she scores closer to a middles eastern jew or sicilian. Of course, can't take any percentage as gospel, but in toto, something seems amiss.

Rancher 19th May 2017 11:18 AM

Given that you have Sicilian and southern Italian ancestry, I would be very surprised if you did not have "Middle Eastern" (West Asian) ancestry.

The Arabs ruled over Sicily as an Emirate for about 250 years, and there was much trade with north Africa before and after that. There was even a dialect of Sicilian Arabic, which was fairly similar to the Arabic dialect that became Maltese (which is essentially an Arabic written in Latin letters today, though with many loanwords from Italian).

The Emirate came to an end with the Norman invasion of 1086 but of course this was just a political transition, not an ethnic one. The Arabs living there remained (and many were baptized as Christians), and Arabic was still being used as the administrative language of government at least 100 years later.

On the Italian mainland there were also various Arab enclaves established, though these did not last as long as the Emirate in Sicily.


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